Why some people stop being authoritarians

[nancylebov]

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/cracks-in-wall-part-ii-listening-to.html

An essay by Sarah Robinson, a guest blogger at Orcinus.

This is major stuff. Not everyone who gets involved in authoritarian groups stays there forever. Many of the reasons they leave involve lowering their fear level, though being betrayed by the hierarchy is also a biggie.

Being mocked by outsiders is *not* listed as a reason people leave authoritarian groups. This is a hint.

Conservatives are your fellow human beings. Republicans are your fellow human beings. Bush supporters are your fellow human beings. I'm a libertarian. How come I need to nag the idealistic liberals and progressives about this? [1]

I'm not saying it's easy to accept that the Other Side is not simply and eternally the bad guys--it can be quite a strain, but it might be worth the trouble.

Keep an eye on Orcinus--there's going to be at least one sequel.

[1] This snark has been tested on womzilla who thought it was funny. Posting it is an experiment to see whether I need to be calmly reasonable all the time.

Comments

[pnh.livejournal.com]

"Posting it is an experiment to see whether I need to be calmly reasonable all the time."

Rhetorical "experiments" work better if you don't announce them.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I'm sure you're right, but I wasn't quite willing to just let it stand as was, which is presumably a failure of nerve.

So, why do you think I, of all people, need to keep nagging about that point?

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

It's rather depressing isn't it? If majorly traumatic life experiences are the only way to get fundies to challenge their assumptions I'd say we are in for a very long dialogue of the deaf. It isn't going to get any more funny when the fundies with nukes in Washington 'debate' with the fundies with nukes in Tehran.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Major traumatic experiences *aren't* the only reason given, though it's first listed and it may be the most common. The other reasons include exposure to a larger world and good social contacts with non-authoritarians.

Self-regard, always the most attractive personal characteristic

[pnh.livejournal.com]

It's come to my attention that some of you have attitudes of which I disapprove. I really, really disapprove of them. You understand?

I'm posting this as an experiment to see if I have to be calm, reasonable, athletic, scholarly, and good-looking 100% of the time. Obviously, if you disagree, you'll be proving that I must continue to shoulder those burdens.

[madfilkentist]

An interesting article, with many good points. But it tends to assume that authoritarian thinking happens only in close-knit communities of people who aren't very well educated. It also happens among the well-educated, who can construct much more elaborate rationalizations for their beliefs.

It also deals only with fundamentalist authoritarianism. Authoritarianism is found just as much in "liberal" as in "conservative" ideologies, in vast plans for economic regulation, in seat belt and motorcycle laws, in forced vaccinations, in demands for ever-higher taxation. And, of course, there are the even more authoritarian views on the left, all the way to admirers of Lenin and Stalin.

[twistedchick]

Because the neoCons and Republicans and ignorant Bush supporters (ignorant of what his policies are actually achieving, or unknowing and uncaring) tend not to treat liberals and progressives as equals and as fellow human beings. Not all of us can be calm about their treatment of us all the time.

[avram]

If the only thing that breaks people off from authoritarian groups is betrayal by the leader, then there's not really much those of us outside the groups can do, is there?

On the other hand, there's a wide, muddled middle in the US, of people who aren't quite locked into the authoritarianism, but who find GOP rhetoric appealing. Mockery can help there; it's been one of the right's most useful weapons against us for decades.

Re: Self-regard, always the most attractive personal characteristic

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Hokay. Back to being calmly reasonable, and not mentioning it.

I'm hoping I haven't completely undercut the article. It's is completely non-snarky and I think it's really important.

Re: Self-regard, always the most attractive personal characteristic

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Oh. I didn't notice your subject line when I replied.

I'm more ambivalent about being calmly reasonable than you probably realize. It doesn't always feel good to repress that much emotion, and I'm concerned both for my emotional health and for my ability to communicate effectively.

On the other hand, being calmly reasonable both has its uses and gets a certain number of pats on the back (though, imho, not as many as being angry for a favorable audience). I'm looking for a good balance.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Betrayal by the leader or a sub-leader isn't the only thng listed. There are four other reasons that people leave authoritarian groups: permission from a maverick member of the hierarchy, larger world, resolution of fear, life changes.

It looks as though the larger world (education, friendship, cooperation) is the one where outsiders can help.

You may be right that mockery helps keep people from becoming strongly affiliated.

[hummingwolf.livejournal.com]

Outsiders might be able to help with resolution of fear as well, though that's more difficult when you're dealing with someone who believes their group is the one good source of answers.

[firecat]

I'm not saying it's easy to accept that the Other Side is not simply and eternally the bad guys--it can be quite a strain, but it might be worth the trouble.

Based on the comments I suspect I'm walking into a private argument I don't understand, but I did want to drop by to say FUCK YES to this bit.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I understand the private argument myself, but I think the short version is that Patrick and I have some very ill-matched hot buttons.

Thanks for addressing the substantive point.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

It would just figure that the best strategy for prying loose the strongly affiliated is inconsistant with the best strategy for keeping people from getting strongly affiliated in the first place.

[cathyr19355.livejournal.com]

Conservatives are your fellow human beings. Republicans are your fellow human beings. Bush supporters are your fellow human beings. I'm a libertarian. How come I need to nag the idealistic liberals and progressives about this?

IMHO, it's because all of the C's, R's, and BS's who are really trying to keep track of the political situation and current events are so locked into hindbrain fear circuits that it turns on their primate tribal reflexes. To be more explicit, they no longer see their opponents quite as "fellow" human beings while those fears are playing in their heads.

I've never been very political, but now I don't want to talk about politics at all--except on the very local level of the town in which I'm a council member (and where we council members get along 99.5% of the time). I get so much static when I question people's assumptions about politicians and events it depresses me beyond belief. I feel I can't trust the press to tell me the truth, I can't debate the issues with my friends because they reflexively defend their beliefs without giving real facts to support them, and I don't have time to do what esrblog does, namely, comb the political blogs for better information.

[libertarianhawk.livejournal.com]

Another danger is forcing people into the other group by insisting on declaring them part of "Them" if they disagree with one part of the "Us" philosophy. I agree with liberals on lots of issues, but if they don't want to have anything to do with me I can go support another faction that will have me.