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nancylebovThis discussion blames Jim Butcher for the prevalence of angels in sf, and now I want a timeline/bibliography.
There was the singular cherubim in L'Engle's A Wind in the Door, but that probably isn't the annoying sort of angel, or at least I liked it.
I'm also fond of MacAvoy's Damiano trilogy.
The earliest "angels" I can think of are in Sharon Shinn, and they were handwaved science fiction.
There's one who's author and title I don't remember, but included a scene of a woman putting makeup on a male angel.
However, all of this is earlier than urban fantasy/paranormal romance.
I thought angels were still rare compared to vampires, fey, and werewolves. Have I been missing something?
There was the singular cherubim in L'Engle's A Wind in the Door, but that probably isn't the annoying sort of angel, or at least I liked it.
I'm also fond of MacAvoy's Damiano trilogy.
The earliest "angels" I can think of are in Sharon Shinn, and they were handwaved science fiction.
There's one who's author and title I don't remember, but included a scene of a woman putting makeup on a male angel.
However, all of this is earlier than urban fantasy/paranormal romance.
I thought angels were still rare compared to vampires, fey, and werewolves. Have I been missing something?
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Date: 2011-09-26 04:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 05:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 08:19 pm (UTC)For later examples that aren't by Gaiman, there's Peter David's Fallen Angel and New Doctor Who (particularly David Tennant's second season, which had huge amounts of angel imagery).
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Date: 2011-09-26 02:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 02:49 am (UTC)The first Dresden Files book was published in 2000, and the series is just the World of Darkness RPG setting (premiered in 1991) with the serial numbers filed off. The WoD subgame Demon: the Fallen didn't come out until 2002, but angel-related RPG precursors In Nomine and Nobilis came out in 1997 and 1999, respectively.
In conclusion, the discussion you linked is stupid. Bashing Jim Butcher just seems fashionable lately. Perhaps the combination of success and apolitical dorkiness offends.
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Date: 2011-09-26 02:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 02:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 03:27 am (UTC)Said one guy immediately modified that to "Judeo-Christian", even though the original reference had been to "flaming archangels ejected from heaven in the second war on God", an explicitly Christian notion, which ties this back to the discussion of people who use "Judeo-Christian" to mean "Christian, but I don't want people to think I'm an antisemite".
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Date: 2011-09-26 03:33 am (UTC)Also, there is one in the Doctor Who episode Ghost Light (1989), if you're counting TV.
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Date: 2011-09-26 03:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 04:00 am (UTC)Except for The Golden Compass.
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Date: 2011-09-26 04:05 am (UTC)As st_rev notes, there's also C.S. Lewis.
Crediting Jim Butcher makes no sense. Christian fantasists have been around as long as the genre has.
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Date: 2011-09-26 04:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 05:45 am (UTC)*In Hell, or trying to get out.
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Date: 2011-09-26 06:35 am (UTC)Regarding the first angels in sf, I guess you have to define sf. Somebody's probably made a convincing case that you can't have sf without a scientific worldview, and fixed the start date at 18xx. Which would be a pity because the secularization of fiction might be another way to approach this: I bet if you go back into the 19th century there are angels all over the place in speculative fiction or whatever we want to call it: all those fey and fairie queens and spirits and guides* and so on are functionally angels** - anyone who seems disappointed in the human lot is liable to map either onto Blake or Milton or Swift or even Thomas More (Swift gets 2 hacks I reckon: Laputans are satires on theological scholasticism, which was arguably "angelic" at time of writing, and his Houyhnhnms are pretty clearly angelic).
Explicit angels are, I guess, less common but surely also not rare (although there goes Lewis, I think...). Clive Barker's Weaveworld has a visually arresting Seraph in it.
As a side issue, if we take an atheistic stance for a moment, what category of fiction would the Bible be?
* to be honest I don't know that much about this genre of Victoriana, but William Morris and Blavatsky surely fit, even if the latter might not have wanted to be called an author of fiction. Frank Younghusband is early 20th c but in the same tradition.
** cf. Klaatu in The Day The Earth Stood Still.
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Date: 2011-09-26 08:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 08:53 am (UTC)/pedantry. Also I might simply be wrong about that... Hebrew loan-words in English by way of Catholicism are probably the worst possible case for linguistic mashing.
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Date: 2011-09-26 09:15 am (UTC)It's surprising that there aren't still people doing diceless gaming online, but perhaps the article writer either didn't know, or didn't choose to make the locations that public-- making that sort of shared story telling work takes a good mix of people.
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Date: 2011-09-26 09:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 09:18 am (UTC)I was thinking Larque on the Wing, but that definitely isn't it.
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Date: 2011-09-26 09:22 am (UTC)It's more like having angels as another sort of super-powered humanoid. The war in heaven might be there as background, but the story is about one or more angels living with people.
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Date: 2011-09-26 09:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 09:57 am (UTC)Or, as St_Rev points out, In Nomine (which I think might have been influenced by the earlier supernatural but not angelic game Nephilim, and was certainly influenced by Pratchett and Gaiman's Good Omens).
I liked Damiano, too. Now I'm wondering if Big Love could be relaunched with half the characters replaced by angels.
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Date: 2011-09-26 11:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 11:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 12:32 pm (UTC)Book: Darwinia
First few pages: Europe has been replaced by an alien continent. It's the 19th century. A group of explorers is about to go upriver.
I expect: Like Darwin's Voyage on the Beagle but with fictionalized flora and fauna so that the author can nerd out about biology or paleontology.
I get: angels and demons waging war eternal or some shit.
Aargh! Why would you name your book that if you were going to do that other thing!? Rated FFF, would not read again. Would like to unread if possible. Pass the brain bleach, por favor.
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Date: 2011-09-26 02:07 pm (UTC)Lots of angels in romance fiction - I won't be where I can get to my Byron database, but it is common enough that it has a "plot point" in Byron.
Anne Stuart had Falling Angel in 1993.
Usual romance structure is "guardian angel" who is working off some life behavior guiding some living person - love ensues and they must choose between angel or mortal life.
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Date: 2011-09-26 03:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 03:18 pm (UTC)There's also Jurgen: Cabell's placing of "the God of Jurgen's grandmother" in the much broader context of Koschei could be considered a predecessor to having angels etc. without having a "purely" Christian universe.
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Date: 2011-09-26 05:01 pm (UTC)My Ideal Angel
Date: 2011-09-26 05:03 pm (UTC)Runner-Up: the "background staff" of Touched By An Angel
No. 3: The guys who haul all that scenery around between the seconds, like in the 80s The Twilight Zone episode.
No. 4: What Dreams May Come
No. 5: Louis DePalma from Taxi
No. 6: Angels in L.A.
No. 7: Mr. Roarke on Fantasy Island
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Date: 2011-09-26 05:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 07:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-26 11:08 pm (UTC)However, the author is not wrong that there's a lot -more- "immersive gaming" online, which is going to pull mindshare from the diceless stuff.
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Date: 2011-09-27 12:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-27 06:21 am (UTC)Full disclosure: I have never watched an episode of Buffy.
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Date: 2011-10-15 05:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-10-15 10:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-10-15 11:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-10-16 12:11 am (UTC)Both of your links are to the same ad.
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Date: 2011-10-16 10:59 pm (UTC)