I'll be getting a new computer

[nancylebov]

I haven't been posting lately because I've been borrowing Heather's computer when it's available. I'm going to be getting some money to get a new computer, and the arguments in favor of a Mac seem to be less vulnerable to malware (especially important since I'll probably have broadband), good for graphics (something I want to get into for my business), not significantly more expensive than PC's these days, more stable operating system. Afaik, there are no major arguments in favor of getting a PC, but I'm willing to listen if I've missed something.

Also, it may be a clue that I've got dozens of anti-Windows slogans (and am looking forward to more about Vista), and only one anti-Mac slogan which I actually looked for out of fairness.

I'm not sure how much money I'll have to play with, but I'm interested in recommendations for good low-end Macs. I think I'm not going to be doing anything computationally ambitious (I'm not a cutting edge gamer and I'm not going to be making movies). I'm also interested in recommendations for good Mac software, espcially if it's free. It should be much less necessary, but is there a Mac equivalent to Go Back, or should I just not worry about it?

Comments

[ritaxis.livejournal.com]

I don't have any argument against Macs except that in my experience they've been everything PCs are accused of except there are fewer viruses and trojans written for them, and they annoy me personally because of the way they handle open, minimized, and closed programs and windows.

So there's nothing for me to say, really -- just making conversation.

But I will ask my daughter's boyfriend, who is a Mac fanatic, especially about the freeware stuff.

[atomicat.livejournal.com]

Urf, Macs! Can't fix em yourself. Software is expensive (and hard to pirate). Can't upgrade em yourself. Costs three times as much as anything on the market. Always find yourself in the niche corner. Still haven't figured out that mice should have more than one button.

PC's. Cheap as borsht. Do NOT crash if you have a decent motherboard. Note: My computer NEVER EVER EVER EVER crashes and I work it like a five dollar mule! Right now I'm downloading, editing LARGE graphics files, and ripping a DVD, oh, and on MSN, Yahoo, and transferring files (drag and drop from application to my online domain). I have a middling PC by todays standards. AMD 1800 & 512M ram. Could grab this puppy for $700 Canadian right now. Oh, and of course, pirating anything you want is as easy as Bittorent.

[ckd]

Can't fix em yourself. Software is expensive (and hard to pirate). Can't upgrade em yourself. Costs three times as much as anything on the market. Always find yourself in the niche corner. Still haven't figured out that mice should have more than one button.

1,2. Depends on what you're fixing or upgrading. RAM upgrades are generally easy, for example.

3. Hm? A Mac Mini costs $600 for the low end model; the Dell Dimension C521, their "mini" desktop, costs $470. Even adding in a keyboard and mouse doesn't make it three times the cost.

4. What's wrong with the niche corner?

5. The currently shipping mouse has four buttons (left-click, right-click, scroll-pea, and squeeze). Or you can, y'know, buy any random USB mouse you like.

[atomicat.livejournal.com]

Granted their prices have dropped now that they've stopped using the Motorola chips. ALL upgrades and hardware fixits are easy on PC's. I wouldn't touch a Dell with a 600G RAID array. Thank god they finally caught on with the mouse thing.

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

Urf, Macs! Can't fix em yourself. Software is expensive (and hard to pirate). Can't upgrade em yourself. Costs three times as much as anything on the market. Always find yourself in the niche corner. Still haven't figured out that mice should have more than one button.

None of those things are true (except maybe the niche comment).

This is being typed on a Mac that has been upgraded several times. Has a four button mouse with scroll wheel. Is chock full of free software (and yes, not all of it is legal). Prices, like for like, are broadly comparable.

I use both Mac and PC and have done for years. The one advantage the PC has is that there is more software for it though most of that consists of either either games or rubbish like Microsoft Project. In most other respects they are fairly comparable these days though Macs seem rather less prone to mysterious gremlin type illnesses.

[atomicat.livejournal.com]

All them gremlin problems I'm constantly hearing about are from people with shit motherboards. Never had em, never even seen em on mine. Point is, Macs have lost so much ground over the years that it's going to be a long while before they're caught up. Oh, me bro just put together a quad-processor AMD Opteron system for work. 8 Gigs of ram, 2 terabytes of storage. Just the thing for geological survey work.

[madfilkentist]

My machine at work is an IBM provided by my employer, running XP Professional 2002 SP2. Not exactly a "shit motherboard," but it's routine for one or more applications to crash as soon as I've booted up and logged in. If it survives the first minute, though, it's very stable.

[avram]

Wow. Every single statement in your first paragraph (except possibly for "Urf, Macs!") is demonstrably false.

If you're a whiz-bang hardware geek who likes putting custom kits together, yeah, Macs probably aren't for you. And you're probably not Nancy.

[atomicat.livejournal.com]

Spoken like a true Mac aficionado. Kustom Kits? Feh! Building PC's is like slapping together Lego blocks. A child could do it (and they do!)

[avram]

Open Source Mac -- a list of free, open-source software for MacOS X.

Cool OSX Apps -- a blog about just what you'd think from the name.

My del.icio.us bookmarks tagged with both "mac" and "freeware". Probably overly techie for your needs. You might at some point be interested in those tagged with both "mac" and "admin".

Quicksilver, a really useful freeware utility. Here are its Wikipedia page and a round-up of Quicksilver tutorials.

I've no idea what Go Back even is, so I can't help you there.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Go Back is a program which reverts your hard drive. It takes a fair chunk of resources, I think, to keep track of what's changed lately, but you can go back between 2 weeks and 2 days, and that's enough to undo a lot of problems.

[chatworthy.livejournal.com]

I believe something similar will be built into the next version of OSX.

[avram]

Ah yes, Time Machine.

Also, my impression is that Windows is more susceptible to the kinds of problems that something like Go Back or Time Machine is likely to solve. I just back up my whole hard drive to an external drive, because the only things I really worry about are a hard disk crash or my laptop being stolen. Or spilling a Coke into it or something like that.

[madfilkentist]

Free and reliable software for the Mac: Thunderbird for email, Firefox for the Web, Fugu for Secure FTP (I think that's free, but don't recall for sure), Gimp for image editing, NeoOffice for word processing and spreadsheets. Learn to use the Unix command line if you don't know how already; there's a lot of very useful software there.

[avram]

Yeah, Fugu is free. It's what I use too, when I'm not using the command line.

[sturgeonslawyer.livejournal.com]

Though I like Macs better, I'm not a religious fanatic and can see both sides of this fence. Here's my brief analysis of the pros and cons.

Money is the single biggest argument against Mac. A low-end Mac just plain costs more than a low-end Wintel box. In fact, it costs more than a moderate PC. And the software proggies are often more expensive (though only a little) than their Wintel components.

But. It works much, much better. Those "it just works" ads? Well, they're not 100% true, but I'll give them a 98%. I've had both computers for four or five years and I have ***never*** had a "blue screen of death" on my Mac, and only once or twice had to forcibly shut down a misbehaving program.

Plus, if you have a Wintel proggy you can't live without and there's no good enough Mac equivalent ... you can run Windows on a modern (Intel-based) Mac. Full Windows, not an emulation. My wife has a dual-booting Mac laptop and it runs much more smoothly in Windows mode than my Wintel laptop. Of course, you have to buy the Windows OS, but then, for the price of one computer and two OSs you've got the equivalent of two computers -- plus, hiding underneath the Mac OS, is a BSD Unix kernel, and you can get to it using a built-in console program. So you've got all three major OSs running on one box, if that means anything to you.

MacOS is decidedly more stable than Windows -- especially because if you buy a Wintel box right now odds are you're going to get Vista, which may well be the best new OS since the last best new OS, but which is bran'new and therefore is likely to still be buggy and vulnerable. It has all them kewl n00 fechurs, but a lot of them are just playing catch-up with MacOS anyway. (As usual.)

The other downside of Mac: If, like I was, you're a longtime Wintel user, there's a learning curve associated with Mac OS. And if you're heavily into using keyboard shortcuts -- there's stuff you can do with keyboard combos on a Wintel box that you have to use the mouseoid for on a Mac. That's actually my #1 personal complaint: I move bakkenforth between Word on my Wintel laptop and Word on my Mac desktop, and I keep trying to do keyboard combos on the Mac that don't work, or do something totally different to what I expect. Urgh.

YMMV, but that's my bit.

[atomicat.livejournal.com]

"MacOS is decidedly more stable than Windows -- especially because if you buy a Wintel box right now odds are you're going to get Vista, which may well be the best new OS since the last best new OS,"

Ouf! Nooooo to Vista! Aiee! TOTAL pig! Stick with XP or, if you've got an older box, 98-SE. Both are totally stable IF IF IF you get proper hardware! Every bitch-fest I've seen about Windoze crashing I've tracked back to the person having crap for hardware. As said before, I run everything from Autocad2007 to moderately ripping games (NOT a gamer) and NEVER EVER EVER crash, ever.

It is really nice to hear that you can run Windows now on Mac, of course all because they finally ditched the Motorola line. Too bad, Motorola had some clever chip tech. AMD beats Intel hands down for the same reason, they go for clever over power. AMD=Computing Intel=Gaming.

[thatcrazycajun.livejournal.com]

Full disclosure: I have been a Mac evangelist for many years (not in the official licensed-by-Apple sense, just informally among my friends and fellow professionals). That being said, last year I got a 1.66 gHz Mac mini, the faster of the two mini versions, for $800 plus tax. If you already have a mouse, keyboard, monitor and peripherals that are in decent shape and USB/FireWire capable, that's all you need to spend on hardware. (The computer even comes with a VGA adapter for older monitors.) I do graphics work on it and have had no problems, and it runs quick like a bunny (though compared to my old 300 mHz G3, almost anything sold these days would). Based on what you describe as your needs and what others have said, plus what I have personally seen of your work, a Mac mini would probably do you just fine (and likely be even faster now than when I got mine almost a year ago). My only quibble is that it could use more USB slots, but adding a hub or dongle to get more is dirt cheap.

[whc.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I guess the 3x price factor is about right. I spent $250 on an emachines PC that included everything but the monitor. I don't recall ever seeing closeout deals on Apple hardware.

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

You're not looking in the right spot. E.g., Small Dog typically has refurbs and last-year's-models for significant discounts, and has excellent customer service.

To the parent post: Macs are more expensive. You get what you pay for. If your time is worth above-average money to you, it quickly pays itself off.

[avram]

But was the model you bought equivalent to the Mac that Crazy Cajun bought? I'm looking at the eMachines and Apple sites right now, comparing Mac minis to eMachines desktops, and I note that only the most expensive of eMachines's models comes with the dual-core CPU that all Mac minis come with, and their cheapest model lacks the DVD-burning drive that all Macs come with.

Granted, if you want a minimal machine, and saving money is a high priority, then you might be better off skimping on features and getting something like that.

[whc.livejournal.com]

Ah, I didn't realize the Mac Mini had the dual core processor.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

I'm a non-Apple person for one main reason (and it's the same reason I criticize Microsoft so thoroughly): I despise the abuse of power that inevitably results from a de facto monopoly. Apple's prices, though now more comparable than ever before to those on the PC side, largely because they've started using Intel processors, are still inflated far above where they would be if their standards were opened up even partially, as the PCs are, for multiple manufacturers.

I work doing graphics, and find that PCs are as good as Macs for the purpose. To be fair, they're more commonly attacked by malware than are Macs; then again, they outnumber Macs by 9-1 or more, and particularly in industries that deal with money. (And, regardless, any PC should have Internet Explorer and Outlook supplanted ASAP and used as litle as possible afterward. 90% of infections could be prevented by not using those two programs.)

Oh. I misspoke above. There is a second reason I dislike Macs. It's the same reason I can't stand the Boston Red Sox, or the Dallas Cowboys. Their fans are generally unreasoning and blindly loyal, unwilling to acknowledge positives elsewhere, or negatives (especially those which parallel the rivals they criticize: "buying a pennant", and "abuse of a monopoly position", by the Red Sox and Apple, respectively).

[thatcrazycajun.livejournal.com]

Stipulated that Apple can be obnoxiously monopolistic; this is largely because Steve Jobs is an elitist who wants his company to be "the innovator." In his mind, you can't be that if you let everybody and his brother copy your specs and make clones. This has long been a source of aggravation to me and other Mac users.

On the other hand, there is this to be said for keeping tight control of the hardware: it increases hardware reliability and software stability. Apple products just work, right out of the box, far more often than Micro$oft's or their partners' "Plug & Pray" or "Plays for Sure--NOT!" equipment. And when you have to write an OS and drivers for gods-only-know-what-and-how-many peripherals made by everybody and his brother, it vastly increases the likelihood of problems.

Your point about Internet Exploder and LookOut--err, I mean Outlook is well taken. That may be one reason among many that Apple now bundles its own Web browser, scheduling and mail apps with the system.

As for the attitudes of Mac users, stipulated also that some of them can be unthinking Kool-Aid drinkers and obnoxious asshats. So can many PC users. I personally find a far larger proportion of bigots in the Wintel world than among Mac users.

[ritaxis.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry: I didn't mean to set the tone for Mac bashing. I really will ask around about the questions you actually wanted to get the answers for.

MAC hardware

[(Anonymous)]

I have wondered about the same decision myself. Once upon a time, MAC hardware was much more reliable than any other. Nowadays, however, I have so many friends and acquaintances with MACs who are plagued by hardware problems. So much so, that it almost seems to me to be that the question is, "Which are you more OK with, software headaches or hardware headaches?"

I am skeptical that the people I know just happen to have bad luck with their computers.

At the moment I do not own a (modern)computer. I am very happy with my work machine which is a DELL running Linux.

David Bellamy

[chatworthy.livejournal.com]

I don't know if you take a laptop out to cons or not. If you do, just about any Apple laptop will do. If you're not looking to spend a lot, and already have a keyboard and monitor that'll work, consider any of the Mac Minis. And the Apples these days are built around Intel processors, so they'll run Windows if need be.

[fixx.livejournal.com]

For the past 20 years or so, Macs have been growing ever more like PCs in every way, including becoming somewhat less stable. Well every way except in one regard, and that one regard is price. Macs have gotten cheaper, but so have PCs.

Macs cost more than PCs and always will. Mac repairs cost more and always will. I'd say that if you have a friend who will repair and upgrade your Mac for free, that would be a good option.

Your computer is now about 6 or 7 years old, which is about as old as I was anticipating it would last when I built it for you. It is certainly not too young to replace. However, I tend to feel that since I bothered to build to be upgraded, upgrading it is an option which should be considered. I know I provided you an estimate for replacing the motherboard, CPU and RAM in the past year at under $120, a bit more for a newer OS. Your drive is still a good size and your VGA card is overkill for your needs.

However, what your machine appears to be suffering from mainly sounds mostly like a somewhat crashed Operating System. Before you endure the expense of buying a new computer, I think you should try running that "EasyCleaner" registry cleaner I told you about. The symptoms you described to me over the phone sound EXACTLY like the symptoms of the worst computer I've seen this product repair.

You can find my entry about Registry Cleaner here (http://fixx.livejournal.com/329369.html)

I tend to think that if your computer actually worked as well as it did when I built it, you'd find it to be adequate for your needs for at least another year or two, although saving for some upgrades would be wise, and setting the goal of scheduling for about April would be best for best prices, especially on RAM.

In the meantime I would advise you to start asking your friends to donate you a nice legal copy of Windows 2000 they are no longer using, because for rock solid stability, that is currently my OS of choice.

PS: You should stop worrying about having GoBack on your computer after you start making regular backups.... I take that back. I still use GoBack and so should you.