Random question

[nancylebov]

What do you think would happen if Americans could sell their citizenships?

The notion came up in a discussion at Marginal Revolution, and it seems like it would be interesting and would make a difference, but I'm not visualizing what would happen.

Afaik, people spend $10,000 to $30,000 just to be smuggled into the US, so they'd presumably pay more for completely safe and secure citizenship.

Comments

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

I'd be curious as to what would happen to the person selling their citizenship? Would they become stateless? Take citizenship in another nation?

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

I guess it would work if one were already a dual citizen.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

A sensible person would pre-arrange citizenship in another country.

Or they could be stateless. I wonder if a lot of them would be illegal non-immigrants.

[captain-button.livejournal.com]

Somehow I have the feeling that lots of people would sell their citizenships and then stay in the US on one pretext or another.

[cellio]

Ditto. Most people don't qualify for dual citizenship; most of those who do won't jump through all the hoops to get it; almost everyone will assume he's safe from being caught.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Weird. The notion makes me uncomfortable.

I'm far more comfortable with the idea that someone could outright BUY a citizenship -- if someone could go to the US Embassy, take a basic skills test to make sure that they understood the basis of the government in the country (something I rather wish that born citizens were required to do). demonstrate, in some basic fashion, that they weren't an axe-murderer, write out a certified check for, say, $20,000 to the US State Department or whomever, and then be handed their passport and social security number.

But I prefer the idea that the citizenship comes from the community as a whole -- and the government, as the agent of the community -- rather than being passed on as the property of an individual.

[dcseain.livejournal.com]

I concur.

[anniemal.livejournal.com]

I admire the ideals of our system of government, but am disappointed with its practice. If I get disappointed enough, and can convince my southern man to move north, I could become Canadian and then I'd happily sell my American citizenship to the right alien. Probably someone I've worked with. Or some kid caught up in the whole "You weren't born here." shitnet.

They belong here at least as much as I do.

No longer proud of my country. Here,have it. I'm only keeping citizenship for practical reasons. And out of hope.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

The thing is -- this was a country to be damn proud of just eight years ago. That's not a long time. We CAN get it back.

[anniemal.livejournal.com]

That's where my hope kicks in. There's another election. I haven't decided on a primary candidate yet, as I see good things in all top three, and it's early yet. And as I don't have any extra money to throw around, they're not my problem yet.

I'm more worried about Congress. The Polls say people aren't happy with it. Well, I'm not either and I'm not surprised. My Representative keeps voting the way I want him to and not winning. WTF is the matter with the rest of 'em? The Senate keeps getting crossed up by the House. Of course it's a (bad word). And suddenly the Ugly Leprechaun finds his veto pen. My inner Chaotic Neutral is throwing a bash.

I know we can get our country and its dignity and its budget and foreign policy back under sane control. But are enough people thinking enough to know how bad it is and accept that it won't be easy? And how ruthlessly greedy are the rich? I'm not convinced anymore that an election can't be bought and that we are not too stupid a lot to do better as a whole. I used to think we could. 2000 broke my faith in the supreme court, and since then...oh well.

[captain-button.livejournal.com]

There would immediately be a flood of lobbying to allow citizenship to be seized in bankruptcy court, or via credit card arbitration.

And of course it would provide another excuse for denying any kind of government benefits to citizens, since they have this valuable asset they refuse to sell, so they aren't poor, they are choosing to be sick, homeless and starving.

Also, how does one prove citizenship now, and how corrupt will that process become with that much money at stake?

[dcseain.livejournal.com]

There would immediately be a flood of lobbying to allow citizenship to be seized in bankruptcy court, or via credit card arbitration.

And of course it would provide another excuse for denying any kind of government benefits to citizens, since they have this valuable asset they refuse to sell, so they aren't poor, they are choosing to be sick, homeless and starving.

Unfortunately, i need must agree with this.

[anniemal.livejournal.com]

Oh hell--yeah. I hadn't thought of that. Damn. Okay, back to purchasing it from the state and the problems with that. They're pretty much all the same. Money. Class. Greed and/or ruthlessness and/or luck. *sigh*

[avram]

How about a married couple? Both citizens already, husband sells his citizenship, gets a marriage visa and stays in the US. Eventually he becomes a citizen again. Now the wife can sell her citizenship....

[anniemal.livejournal.com]

Homegrown entrepreneurship via loophole! So American! We could do that.

[anniemal.livejournal.com]

Nah, it would get plugged fast because the middle class could use it as well or better than the wealthy. Sometimes I'm still amazed that they're still only allowed one vote. Or that we don't have to pay to vote at all. Except you have to have an address. And there we hit the raw nub.

Wealthy foreigners could vote when very American homeless people would be utterly, possibly cheerfully in some quarters, disenfranchised. Nope. Unless all the money gained from foreigners purchasing citizenship were turned over to giving homeless people real addresses, it wouldn't be right. I'm sure there is a major flaw in my thinking because it was too straightforward. But I'm done with it for now.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

People wouldn't have to be all that wealthy to buy a US citizenship. I'd be surprised if it settles at more than 40K. That's more than most of us have handy, but it's not great wealth.

I don't have a feeling for how many people would pay that much for US citizenships, though quite possibly more of them than US homeless.