Tangential non-humor

[nancylebov]

Somewhere in the many posts about the thing that ate livejournal, Heinlein was criticized for never portraying a woman saying no to sex. It occurred to me I'd never seen that in fiction anywhere so I asked if anyone else had. It was buried deep in a thread of what used to be unusual size, so I was lucky to get a reply at all. However, the reply was about only being able to think of two cases, and in both of them the woman was raped.

So, can you folks think of examples in fiction of women saying no to sex, and if so, what happened after that?

Addendum:: Thanks for all the replies. I'm especially interested in cases where the woman says no, she and the other person never have sex, and nothing awful happens.

I realize this is very undramatic, but as part of life it should turn up now and then in fiction.

Comments

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Are you talking about no, or no-for-now, or no-but-later-change-their-mind? On my LJ, skylarker pointed out the in contemporary romances, women frequently say (as I understand it) one of the latter two. I've certainly read mysteries where women say no, with various consequences, ranging from humorous verbal exchanges to rape.

[tashadandelion.livejournal.com]

You beat me to it; it's pretty standard in romance novels for the heroines to resist sexual contact for any variety of reasons. I think one of the reasons women love such plot devices is because it reminds them they can be in charge of deciding when and for what reason they grant their physical/sexual trust.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

Cherryh has quite a lot.

In the first couple of chapters of Rimrunners the protagonist kills a couple of creepy rapists. Later on she says yes to sex with a several guys, including saying yes and then "no, how about later" to repeats.

Actually, saying no to sex in an established relationship is even more unusual, because you go get those romance novels where the heroine says no to lots of guys before she finally says yes to the hero. In Merchanter's Luck Cherryh has the heroine say to the hero that sex is for stations not on the ship, no matter what we were doing on the station, here we have separate rooms, and makes it stick.

And about Heinlein, I think he grew up in a very sex negative world, and in a world where women weren't supposed to like sex but the same proportion do as do now, which is you you get those "whorish best" comments which read so oddly now. Reading Heinlein as a sexual teenager I felt his women were empowering because they liked sex and that was OK. I also bore with the spanking scene in IWFNE because presumably it was what Johann/Joan had always naturally wanted without asking even when he was a guy, not that women inherently want it.

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

Happens with Harriet at least once in Olivia Manning's Fortunes of War.

michael vassar comments that

[(Anonymous)]

It's common in songs and jokes. Also common for women to say no to potential sex partners who they don't consider desirable. Lolita says no and isn't raped a lot more often than she says no and is raped (I think never) and a lot more frequently than she says yes as well. Women who are cheating in fiction often say no. Resisting rapes or killing rapists is common in literature. Resisting advances from a sympathetic ex for some time or permanently is also common. Women in fiction are sometimes offered and usually refuse sex for money or career advancement.
Oh, Eyes Wide Shut has a good example at the beginning too.

[malkingrey.livejournal.com]

Heinlein was responsible for so much of the default sf universe that sometimes it's easy to forget that he was born in (checks Wikipedia to make certain) 1907.

At least with Heinlein, I always got the feeling that -- however much he may have sometimes fumbled in the writing of his female characters -- he actually liked women and was trying valiantly to understand them. There are a lot of male writers both in and out of the genre for whom I really can't say the same.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Eddison (probably in _A Fish Dinner in Memison_) has Lady Mary Scarnsdale saying no sometimes to sex with her husband. IIRC, it isn't clear whether she sometimes doesn't feel like it or she is keeping him from taking her for granted.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I think just plain no is the most interesting for this discussion.

Romance fiction "no, but we're all sure she will and should say yes" isn't quite the level of agency I'm looking for.

[bruceb.livejournal.com]

The last arc of Scott McCloud's glorious comic book series Zot! has this as a prominent subject. Zot and Jenny are obviously attracted to each other, and have an issue where they talk about it very seriously. In the end Jenny decides she's not ready, Zot takes no for an answer, and it's shown as good for the development of both.

[nwhyte]

There's even one in Heinlein, surely? The woman that one of the lads in Space Cadet unsuccessfully chats up.

[redbird]

Does forcefully refusing an arranged marriage count? I just read Bujold's The Curse of Chalion, and a large part of the plot has to do with Iselle refusing to marry the chancellor's brother, and what happens after said brother tells her that if she doesn't give consent at the marriage ceremony, he will rape her, and her brother the king considers that acceptable in this case.

[selenite.livejournal.com]

Other examples in Heinlein:
Dora in TEFL turns down Monty and his boys, then kills one while Lazarus kills the others when they wouldn't take no for an answer.

Hilda in NotB had turned down Zeb as a bed partner prior to the start of the book and explains later that she wanted him as a non-sexual friend.

The whores on Mars in TEFL could reject customers, as could the much higher class courtesans on Secundus.

That's the most I can do from memory. I do remember a lot of scenes having the vibe of "he wants to ask, but he knows she'll say no, so he won't" but the only specific example I can come up with offhand is in Starship Troopers: "Carmen kissed me goodnight." My read is that she set the limit, ie said no to anything beyond a kiss.

[sgsguru.livejournal.com]

The only example that comes to mind immediately is from Doc Smith's First Lensman, where Jill Samms is cock-teasing Herkimer Herkimer to within an inch of his life. (BTW, what's a socially-acceptable term for cock teasing?)

In the older stuff, of course, it's all done in subtext. In Doc Smith's Spacehounds of IPC (a space opera that's so bad it's fascinating, in a train-wreck sort of way), there's a fairly long sequence when it's obvious that the two main characters are so horny for each other that they can't see straight. Of course, you couldn't say that when it was published.

[dr-zrfq.livejournal.com]

I remember one Regency romance where a villain made the mistake of abducting the feisty heroine, who with the help of her cat turned the tables on him, so that when the hero arrived on the scene, his only comment was "You seem to have the situation well in hand."

There is one scene in Time Enough For Love where Lazarus's wife Dora takes exception to the idea of some hoodlums having their way with her... one bad guy has Lazarus at gunpoint, and from the kitchen she shoots the gun out of his hand, allowing Lazarus to implant a knife without getting shot; she could have just shot the guy and saved herself, but she chose the more difficult shot in order to save her husband's life as well.

I think I recall an incident in one of Lois McMaster Bujold's Barrayar-universe novels where a woman says no, and when the man tries to press the issue she basically opens up a can of whoopass on him, but I can't place it with any precision.

There may be more scenes I've read but those are the ones that I can recall immediately.

[captain-button.livejournal.com]

The Bujold one may be in "Ethan of Athos" and takes place offscreen, IIRC. Ethan comes back to see the very end of the encounter, or maybe is just told about it by Elli Quinn.

I'm recalling some male Heinlein character (likely LL) who claimed to avoid rejection by always waiting to be asked first. Not a viable option for many people, but that's Heinlein characters for you.

If I were feeling ambitious, I'd try and list who actually asks first in various Heinlein stories, but I'm not.

[thnidu.livejournal.com]

And of course LL is immortal, which helps.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

addendum: Thanks everyone, for the examples.

[captain-button.livejournal.com]

In "Time for the Stars" there was Tom and Prudence (or was it Patience?), although they were only at the snuggling stage when she broke it off at her sister's behest.

I'm vaguely recalling something between Jackie and Rod in "Tunnel in the Sky", but memory is very fuzzy, and it may have just been a preemptive warning.

And in "If This Goes On..." Sister Magdalene (name uncertain) rejects John's proposal quite loudly, IIRC. And earlier Sister Judith objected to the "and so forth" with the Prophet.

[llennhoff.livejournal.com]

Does it matter if it is no to sex outside of/without marriage, vs. turning down a marriage proposal?

Stephanie DeMargierie (spelling?) repeatedly turns down Duquense, the arch-villain of the Skylark series repeatedly. Heck, she won't even go on dates with him unless they go "Dutch". Eventually he sorta-proposes and she accepts.

Cadet Honor Harrington turns down an offer for sex from a nobly-born senior cadet and makes an enemy for (his) life. She also beats him to a bloody pulp the first time he tries to push the issue.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

How many people have propositioned Jame Talissen by now? Dally, Bane, Bortis(?), Melissand, Ozymardien (seeking the B'tyrr), Caldane on behalf of his grandsons, Ardeth ditto, the young Ardeth in Rage of Rathorns. Oh and, duh, Gerridon. Maybe Keral too, casually, in the scene where he was regenerating in a shadow-orgy.

Okay, so lots of awful things happened after these, but not always, and generally not to Jame. At least some of the bunch took "no" for an answer.

[src.livejournal.com]

In "The Redemption of Christopher Columbus" by Orson Scott Card, a young woman turns down a young man who is in love with her, and says that if he really loves her, he will accept that they do not belong together. And he does. Later when they are old they visit one another, but they never became lovers or had a romantic relationship.

[src.livejournal.com]

Oh, and in the original novella "Of Mist, Grass, and Sand", the healer Snake turns down the young man from the plains, and there is mutual acceptance of this. In the full-length novel, of which the novella is the first 20 - 30%, he later goes in search of her and there are mutual feelings. But the original novella stands as a good early example of an accepted & respected 'no'.