Checking up on an old slogan

[nancylebov]

What do you think of

A Purple Heart means you were smart enough to think of a plan, stupid enough to try it, and lucky enough to survive

?

A non-combat vet told me the slogan was deeply offensive-- possibly appropriate for vets to say to each other, but a wrong thing for civilians (especially when there's a war) because it implied that people with Purple Hearts were stupid. I don't think that's a reasonable reading of the slogan, but I'm not going to step on people's toes for no reason.

On the other hand, to some extent she's being indignant for other people, and that's less likely to be accurate than being indignant for oneself.

In re "Some people just like feeling insulted": As far as I can tell, sometimes I'm genuinely outraged, and sometimes I'm looking for trouble. The whole thing is subtle and messy and I'm not going to start by assuming that inconvenient outrage is always something to be ignored.

Comments

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

I dunno--my dad would quote it, maybe, but he'd then immediately qualify pretty much every bit of it.

I don't think it's offensive but I do think it's misleading about the mechanisms of being given a Purple Heart.

[madfilkentist]

It strikes me as potentially offensive. Two of the three qualifiers demean the recipient.

In many cases it isn't even true in a loose way; the recipient might have been shot while doing nothing special.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

It comes across to me as nothing but a joke, and not something that anyone should even consider taking seriously. The outrage seems like a tempest in a teapot. *shrug*

[madfilkentist]

I wouldn't expect massive protests, but even if all it causes is annoyance, what's the point?

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

I have no evidence that the annoyance is widespread, and I am not willing to let the uptightness of a (very) few control the language of the many.

There are, of course, obvious exceptions.

[siderea]

Joke and insult aren't mutually exclusive categories. 'Taint nothing wrong with it among comrades who have the established rapport to contextualize a little ribbing, but for outsiders to use it is mighty presumptuous. A fellow soldier might someday earn a Purple Heart, but some sideline civilian isn't ever, and that give the same words from civilian mouths a nasty edge of "what you can have and we can't, we'll run down".

I mean, saying, "Oh, it wasn't anything," oneself, is humility. Saying, "Oh, it wasn't anything," of someone else, is a put down.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

It is presumptuous for an outsider to use it. I don't think I'd say it to someone who had a Purple Heart (unless I knew them quite well), but that's not because I think the phrase itself is necessarily insulting. It's because the phrase is too glib; the fact of making a joke out of someone else's trauma is (potentially) far more insulting than anything the joke itself might contain.

Had the unnamed objector to this phrase specified that the joke shouldn't come from civilians, I'd give that view far more credence than what I understood her to say, which is that the joke is insulting and shouldn't be used, period.

[siderea]

But that's exactly what she said, according to the OP: "A non-combat vet told me the slogan was deeply offensive-- possibly appropriate for vets to say to each other, but a wrong thing for civilians (especially when there's a war) because it implied that people with Purple Hearts were stupid."

Didja need a shovel? You seem to be bent of keeping on digging.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

*laff*

Whoops. No, apparently I just scanned it instead of actually, uh, reading what it said.

*is deeply embarrassed now*

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

The actual situation had to do with whether I should sell a button with the slogan to a store which had ordered it.

It seems unlikely to me that a civilian would be interested enough to buy the button, but I obviously have no control over who'd buy it, wear it, or quote it.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

Two of the three qualifiers demean the recipient.

Wait, what? Smart, stupid, lucky: I don't see either two of those as being demeaning.

[madfilkentist]

"Lucky" implies survival by chance rather than preparation.

You may think people are "uptight" when they object to being called stupid; I think it's a reasonable objection.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

The inability to differentiate between a joke and an insult is one of the definitions of uptightness so far as I can tell.

If we were talking about groups with a large power difference, there would be a whole 'nother layer of meaning there. But we aren't. And so far as I can tell, we're not even talking about groups; we're talking about one person who, if I read the OP correctly, isn't even in the class of people that she is "defending."

That last clause, BTW, is one of the main reasons I'm blowing off her objection and brushing her off as "uptight" rather than considering what she has to say. If I hear this from people that the comment is actually aimed at, or if I hear it from a significant number of interested parties, I'll consider taking the objection seriously.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

I'm keeping these conversations separate because it's easier for me to do it that way.

"Lucky" implies survival by chance rather than preparation.

So what? There's always an element of chance in life (triple in an active combat zone), and I've never, ever seen or heard anyone use "lucky" as a derogatory comment. Envious, probably, but derogatory, never.

[mama-hogswatch.livejournal.com]

I'm not a combat veteran in the sense of having been through the military. I have been in a self-defense situation where I had to fight to survive. No, it's not really the same thing and I'm not trying to claim that it is by any means.

But, in the context of combat, there is this stupid/insane feeling associated with it.

And surviving a combat situation ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS WITHOUT FAIL has an element of luck.

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

I think it's far too complicated. I'd suggest getting wounded in a combat zone is largely a question of chance. I don't think it's necessary to have a plan to stop a bullet.

[selenite.livejournal.com]

I've seen the saying applied to other medals. I think this is a classic case of in-group humor not being appreciated from non-members. I wouldn't repeat it to an infantryman myself, I'm a REMF.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

My history teacher was a medic's aide in WW2, wore a white cross on his helmet, and got shot in the ass by someone who saw an opportunity and took it. No plan required, so the statement fails in the first clause.

There's enough of a risk that someone who earned a Purple Heart would be offended by an outsider like me calling any part of it stupid that I wouldn't utter this sentence unless I knew the individual in question very well indeed.

[regalpewter.livejournal.com]

It is one of the truism's that soldiers love to quote that have been collected as The Unofficial Rules of Military Combat. http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-37882.html

Soldier's throughout the ages have always held the right to bitch about their situation, and have the moral courage to realize that they have not the time to be offended as they have a duty to perform.

BTW, the line in the OP was recently quoted by Sgt. Gregory S. Ruske, a Veteran of Afganistan who was awarded the Silver Star for Valor. Story here;
http://northshorejournal.org/sgt-gregory-s-ruske

YIS,
WRI

[adrian-turtle.livejournal.com]

I've never heard of it as a slogan in any context. Who uses it? Is it new? When I read it just now, and you asked me to form an opinion on it before clicking to go on, I thought you had just formulated the statement yourself, and wanted to know what people thought of its accuracy. (It's wrong.) If it's meant to be funny, it isn't. If it's meant to be grim humor used by an in-group as a bonding ritual...I don't think it can work because Purple Hearts are awarded for too many different kinds of reasons.

On the other hand, to some extent she's being indignant for other people, and that's less likely to be accurate than being indignant for oneself.

There's being indignant on behalf of other people, when the others are not indignant; and there's helping to spread the word about other people's indignation when they are not PRESENT. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a non-combat vet knew more combat vets than many civilians.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I've had it among my custom buttons since 1993.

I'm pretty sure I got it from a list like the one regalpewter cites above, though I don't think it's the same list-- I think I would have remembered "Make it too hard for the enemy to get in and you can't get out".

I didn't say it was impossible to get it right when you're indignant for other people, just that it's less likely. I'm sure she does know many more combat vets than most civilians-- certainly more than I do.

In this particular case, it seemed that she was personally shocked by the slogan, but she didn't mention actually knowing any vets who were hurt or angered by it, nor did she know it was a standard joke among a fair number of them.

[womzilla.livejournal.com]

Presumably, anyone who would want to wear the button (or buy it for someone else) would have to make the calculation of whether they, themselves, were the right speaker for that joke. Part of the problem of your business is that everyone *can* assume that you, Nancy L, are saying the slogan. But you're not.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I do take some responsibility for what's on my buttons, especially for the mass-produced buttons. I try to avoid malice and falsehood (I made an exception on the malice front for GWBush), and include some that I think will have a beneficent effect.

I'm less restrictive about custom buttons, but even there, I've turned down a few (a very few) orders.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Many of the vets I know are pretty cynical about medals in general. My brother (who was a Vietnam vet, a helicopter pilot) certainly was about the Distinguished Flying Cross he got.

[doomspark.livejournal.com]

Am I the only combat vet who's posted on this so far?

I find that button extremely offensive if spoken (or worn) by someone who has never been in the military and never served in a combat zone. Until you've been there, you have *NO* idea what it's like. Twenty years later, I still don't have adequate words to describe it.

In particular, it's the "stupid enough..." part that is offensive. "Smart enough..." is inaccurate, for reasons others here have stated. "Lucky enough..." is the only part that is both accurate and not insulting - again, as others here have stated.