Racism vs. Bigotry

[nancylebov]

I've given up on "racism"--I use "bigotry" instead. Firstly, people's prejudice is frequently tied to groupings which are smaller or other than race. Race is an artificial and relatively modern invention--I'm pretty sure that the natural unit of prejudice is ethnic, based on shared customs rather than shared appearance. I agree that there is racial bigotry, but the situation is much more complicated than that.

Also, I don't buy the idea that the only bad bigotry is accompanied by institutional power, so the word "racism" has been ruined for my purposes. If someone is one of the few white kids in a majority black school, they may well have a serious problem with the other kids even if the black kids are at more risk from the police.

I'll use "bigotry" instead of racism, and modify it as "racial bigotry" or "institutional bigotry" as needed.

I try to minimize hatred and confusion, but I don't think they (or at least anger and close-mindedness) are especially avoidable.

That "racism=prejudice + power" definition has been a disaster for clear thinking. It leaves out the facts that power is local and that holding prejudices is costly even for those who don't have a lot of power to enforce them. I've seen the idea used all too often to mean that black people can't be prejudiced and/or that they don't need to do anything about their own prejudices and/or that white people should just tolerate black prejudice.

The idea that racism/bigotry is about greed and/or fear doesn't cover the ground. Greed and fear come into it, but so does pleasure--that's why people spend so much time on prejudice, and why there are so many nasty jokes and bad dialect imitations.

Comment retrieved from a discussion over at twistedchick's lj.

Comments

[madfilkentist]

The use of racism as an all-encompassing explanation for conflict has long since passed the point of absurdity. You don't like the way some other country is run? That's really a cover (say some people) for your dislike of their genes. You object to crime? You're really objecting to people whose genes are different from you. You don't believe in race quotas? Your refusal to treat race as a factor proves you regard race as a factor.

However, there are people who hold the notion that race should be a determining factor in social relationships, or that some genetic groups are clearly superior to others. Some of these are the old-fashioned Nazi and KKK types. Others hide under the guise of an oppressed group. The word "racist" is perfectly applicable to these people, so it shouldn't be dropped from the vocabulary. There's a distinction worth making between racism and racial bigotry; people who accept racist ideas may think that their own group is the inferior one. I don't think the word "bigotry" would apply in that case, though "racist" would.

I've seen some fierce bigotry expressed between middle class blacks

[mouseworks.livejournal.com]

...and poor blacks.

One of the big motivators is being able to identify with the high achievers in your group. The group then looks at the low achievers of other groups -- sort of being alpha by association and then using your alphas as the measuring stick against their lower achievers or average achievers (this is done by some guys against women all the time). If you're a fairly average guy, being able to identify with Shakespeare against Aphra Behn is probably very empowering.

The interesting thing for me in Philadelphia is that the Asian store owners seem to have much friendlier relationships with the local blacks (at least where I've been) than they did in Washington where the tensions were seriously nasty. Asians there didn't have black clerks, just black customers. Asians here tend to have black clerks and stock people.

Re: I've seen some fierce bigotry expressed between middle class blacks

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Might Philadelphia tend towards Asians from other parts of Asia?

Re: I've seen some fierce bigotry expressed between middle class blacks

[mouseworks.livejournal.com]

One place in Philly was owned by Koreans, so I don't think that's completely it. It's probably hopelessly dependant on initial conditions. Washington real estate might be more expensive, allow for less hiring of blacks, make for more anxious store owners. Blacks fearing gentrification pressures may find Korean store owners just another thing that makes their lives more expensive. Philly is just way cheap in comparison, even now.

[zenlizard]

I tend ot thik of "racism" as the idea that there's any validity to the concept of "race" except as a sociological/historical phenemenon.

[firecat]

Both bigotry and racism are problems. And although I've heard people claim that bigotry between people of oppressed groups or from an oppressed group to a less-oppressed one doesn't count as racism, I've never heard anyone claim that the ONLY bad bigotry is accompanied by institutional power. The bad bigotry accompanied by institutional power is a particular kind and it causes particular problems. Those problems deserve analysis and action. It's easier to analyze and act on things if we name them.

[kressel.livejournal.com]

Here's another language differentiation that can get me into trouble. I don't consider myself a racist. I don't hate anybody unless they deliberately hurt me. But in friendships, I most definitely do give preference to Jews. I like to say I'm not prejudiced against anybody but I am biased in favor of Jews. Still, this viewpoint gets me into trouble. I hope this post won't stir up any. I really do hate flaming.

I've found out that people who thought they were random table mates

[mouseworks.livejournal.com]

...were all from mountain country, one with parents about 30 miles from my grandparents. I also felt very comfortable with William Gibson's world -- and he's also from about 70 miles away. Jack Womack is another Kentucky person.

On the other hand, I also have always had Jewish friends who mistake me for being Jewish. And on the third hand, one of the mountain people at the table was a blond Italian, so are you sure there aren't other factors, like being urban white and not Catholic, say?

Re: I've found out that people who thought they were random table mates

[kressel.livejournal.com]

Thanks for just sharing, not flaming.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I believe the word that describes such a bias is "Chauvanism."

[madfilkentist]

Historical note here. First, it's spelled "chauvinism"; it was named for a Frenchman called Nicolas Chauvin, a fanatical follower of Napoleon, and up till the late 1960's always meant fanatical patriotism. The women's liberation movement adopted the word for the phrase "male chauvinism," and that meaning has driven the original out to the point that the word "male" is often dropped.

Words change. But I find it bothersome that the large majority of people aren't even aware that the word had a different meaning not so long ago, and aren't curious about where the word came from.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

Actually, I hadn't supplied the history of the word because I thought that was common knowledge.

[kressel.livejournal.com]

Perhaps that description fits, perhaps it doesn't, but I hope that the fact that I'm not going to flame counts toward proving that a person can be biased without being hateful or malicious.

There's a Kentucky writer...

[mouseworks.livejournal.com]

..who more or less said that love of one's own land (small scale) didn't mean not supporting the love other's had (small scale) for their land. His brothers were Siberians hunting on their traditional grounds, whether they met or not.

The problem with these sorts of affinity arises when you use ingroups to get economic leverage over others. And whether that's culture or ethnic inclusiveness, when and if it happens, is a whole big bundle of possible problems.

A couple of people in my family have married Jewish men or half Jewish men. In one case, the Jewish family tried to break up the relationship. That's not a useful thing.

Some of what I want to see is a respect for core cultures being allowed to be something separate. There should always be places tourists can't go, much less buy land in.

Mixed feelings here. The Koreans who didn't hire blacks had more problems than the Koreans who did.

divisions

[kressel.livejournal.com]

The problem with these sorts of affinity arises when you use ingroups to get economic leverage over others. And whether that's culture or ethnic inclusiveness, when and if it happens, is a whole big bundle of possible problems.

That could happen, but that isn't necessarily what I'm talking about. I'm talking about being polite to non-Jews but being friendly to Jews. And I think that's the way most people are about their own ethnic or cultural group.

[ritaxis.livejournal.com]

I don't buy the idea that the only bad bigotry is accompanied by institutional power

That's not what's meant by having a specific definition for "racism" -- bigotry is bad, but it's different things. When it's personal bigotry, or bigotry unaccompanied by power, it's a different thing, that's all. Things need specific names so you can talk about them clearly.

I really, really disagree that it's more clear to only think about bigotry in general and leave institutional power out of the equation.

For one thing, being able to talk specifically about the issues of empowerment and disempowerment, about what the institutions do to us, allows a common ground and also allows people to confront personal prejudices. I am white but I am not what's in your way.

[jim-p.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that the natural unit of prejudice is ethnic, based on shared customs rather than shared appearance.

Actually, I'd say it's tribal...

[sturgeonslawyer.livejournal.com]

You might (or might not) also find this posting of interest:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/body_impolitic/11958.html?mode=reply