Knifefighting and martial arts

[nancylebov]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

I was in Germany with a group of martial artists teaching "street knife work." While demonstrating an empty-handed with one of them, he tackled me and took me to the ground (This is no big deal as when I do demo's I don't allow "courtesy attacks." I insist people attack me like they would were it a real fight -- this occasionally means that I get slugged or taken down. This was one of those times). Anyway, when we hit the floor I realized that there was no way I could contest this guys strength, he was a bull, full of muscle and grappling skill. The thing was I had landed next to a practice knife that I calmly picked up and dragged it across his throat.

We stood up and his eyes were the size of saucers because he realized what the significance of what had just happened. A knife had come out of nowhere and had this been real, he would have been dead. The amazing thing was is there were only a few other people there who did too. On of the bigger proponents of grappling stood there and said, "He tackled you." To which I replied, "Yes, and I slit his throat" "But, he tackled you."

Ghu knows, I'm not qualified to judge the accuracy of this (I study t'ai chi for health and the fun of it [1]), but nothing in it sounded implausible. Those of you who study a martial art, have you been taught how to hit while moving? Were the legal issues associated with hurting someone mentioned?

I did study kenpo for about six weeks, and one of the first forms I was shown included at least one foot stomp for after my hypothetical attacker was on the ground. There was no mention of legal issues.

[1] This reminds me that there was a time when I studied T'ai Chi simply because it improved the day. Now there's an element of panic at how much I stiffen up if I don't do T'ai Chi or qigong for a couple of weeks. Fuck. From one angle, I should count my blessings-- at least I've got T'ai Chi-- but I'd forgotten that there used to be a lot less worry associated with it.

Link thanks to yhlee. By the way, most of her interesting links are grouped under "webreadings". I can't think of anyone else who has a blind link like that which is generally worth clicking on.

Comments

[fidelioscabinet.livejournal.com]

You know, the writer said they were doing a session in "street knife work", so it sounds to me like that's something you should expect to have to deal with--knock somebody down, then find out they have a knife--now what do you do, if you aren't dead?

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I think that was his point-- that a lot of martial arts training is much less practical than you're told. Or is that what you're underlining?

[fidelioscabinet.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if it's the training--or maybe the trainees! If you let yourself get stuck in a particular mindset, especially if it's one that's tied into tournaments fought under specific rules, then you're screwed in an actual fight, because the rules are going to be really different. People I know who've done military hand-to-hand training have commented on this--those who can't step past the format of a specific martial art they've been trainined in do badly, because what's being asked of them is something entirely different, and they can't get their litle brains around that. The goal of "dead or incapacitated" has nothing to do with tournament fighting. There will always be some people who don't get that. So I guess I think it's not a specific martial art that's more or less impractical, but some of the people practicing it.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

It wouldn't surprise me if some martial arts teachers encourage bad ideas in their students. Why would martial arts teachers be immune to bad ideas?

[rimrunner.livejournal.com]

From what I understand, it's depressingly common, especially in the more corporate-style schools.

My teacher doesn't do belts, ranking, or any of that stuff. His opinion is that if you need a belt to know how good you are, you don't have a good estimation of your own abilities.

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

Sounded realistic. My aikido teacher was fond of translating his insights to "the street". When we started weapon training, he had a student hold a practice knife, and stood there in a typical aikido stance. "This," he said, "is the proper response."

He ran out the door.

Coming back, he said, "no, seriously, none of these techniques are going to prevent you from being injured against a knife. Run away. If you *think* he has a knife, run away. If you're trapped, however..." and then proceeded to show the standard aikido knife-defense techniques, with more caveats.

[izzylobo.livejournal.com]

(grins)

A teacher I took some lessons under, Way Back When, used to describe alternate techniques as

"So, if were were studying Aikijutsu... which we're not... we might do something like"

(insert horrible mean technique that leave student on floor whimpering - or would, if teacher had applied full force)

"but, of course, we're not. So instead, practice it this way, and keep in mind that if you do it that way to completion, you could really hurt someone, which we don't want to do."

But, yeah, an awful lot of the Aikido teachers I've seen/heard about have a rather practical view of the art, as opposed to some other arts I've seen/heard about/studied briefly.

(My favorite quote about Aikido is still "Sankyo is Japanese for "Vulcan Nerve Pinch" and it hurts."

[rimrunner.livejournal.com]

Sounds realistic to me, too. We do a little bit of knife work in my (very street-oriented) class, but people who are really interested in it get sent to another teacher, who explains to them that it doesn't matter how good they are, if they get into knives, they're going to get cut.

Most defense against knives that I've learned is about minimizing damage, because avoiding it entirely is just about impossible.

Tournament Mentality

[sgsguru.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've seen the schools of martial arts that "train to the tournament". Completely unrealistic for the street.

Another big problem is that tournament training is one- on- one, and you can never guarantee that on the street. In the example, if the narrator had a friend, the friend could do a penalty kick (or, for Americans, a field goal) with the attacker's head. Grappling cuts down your mobility something fierce. This is why Aikido emphasizes mobility and multiple attacks.

That said, in a "real" fight, the one with the training has a really big advantage. Doesn't matter what art. Your friendly average street fighter has no training at all. On the other hand, "anything that can go wrong will".

Re: Tournament Mentality

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I don't see anything wrong with training to the tournament so long at it's very clearly labeled as such, but I bet it frequently isn't.

Situational Awareness

[sgsguru.livejournal.com]

This is an excellent example of "situational awareness". The narrator *saw* the knife, even while he was being tackled. Very important for *any* physical activity, not just martial arts. When you're dancing, you shouldn't run into other couples, for example.

It's hard to teach. You want the student to be aware but not paranoid.

Re: Situational Awareness

[zenlizard]

Basically, what metahacker and sgsguru said. Only, my specific experience was one of the students said "What if you're mugged by someone with a gun?"

"Run away if you can."

Re: Situational Awareness

[(Anonymous)]

What if he's got a pointed stick?

Re: Situational Awareness

[captain-button.livejournal.com]

Shut up!

Re: Situational Awareness

[zenlizard]

Then you pull the lever, and release the tiger!