Noticing unwanted touching, especially of hair

[nancylebov]

These threads are about unwanted touching. Before you read them, please try to guess which people are more likely to be touched because just because some stranger feels like touching them. I expect there will be some surprises in the second thread.

http://plasticsturgeon.livejournal.com/107334.html

http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/801997.html?nc=169

Here's the question for you folks: Have you ever noticed someone getting touched that way? Someone getting touched for a reason that doesn't apply to you?

I never have, and I suspect my lack of adequate people-watching isn't all that unusual.

Note to self: Be more careful about babies. I've been in the habit of making sure the baby wants my company, but I've been much less careful about the adult with the baby.

Comments

[rm.livejournal.com]

Oh I see that shit all the time. Pregnant chicks and kinky hair. Strangers will just go for it.

[rimrunner.livejournal.com]

Yup. Yup. Both of those things. Also what cakmpls said below about children.

My hair is very long and people have often remarked on it, but no one has ever touched it uninvited. Suddenly I feel very lucky about this.

[ladysmith.livejournal.com]

I'd be tempted to say pregnant women, but it only happened to me once when I was pregnant. Which I think was because I never really looked pregnant, even at nine months gone.

[nosebeepbear.livejournal.com]

I had a few people ask, but I don't remember anyone just touching.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Kids of every color get touched that way all the time. Pinched and patted cheeks and stroked hair are the most common things, in my observation. Because kids--little kids especially--are, you know, kind of pets, not really people.

[tashadandelion.livejournal.com]

Indeed! I hate this. I can't stand people who are total strangers to my son getting up to within a foot of his face with a rictus of a grin (probably looks like a scary monster bearing his teeth to my toddler) and yelling, "HI THERE! AREN'T YOU CUTE! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!" That's bad enough, but then the unexpected hugs and tickling and other touching is over the top. I intervene. I don't care who I offend. My kid comes first.

And yet, so friggin' common. *sigh*

[sethg]

I lived for three years of high school in a 85ish%-black neighborhood (Hyde Park, on the south side of Chicago), and it never even occurred to me to fondle a black person's hair. (Not that I hold myself up as a paragon of Non-Racist-White-Guy-ness ... but this particular form of racism never occurred to me.)

But I've seen this referred to from enough independent sources that it must be happening a lot.

[tashadandelion.livejournal.com]

I suspect whoever is the novelty is the target of the touching. Novelty is in the eye of the beholder. While many black women have to deal with unbelievably rude boundary-encroachment, so do white women like me who live in or pass through predominantly black neighborhoods.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen much of this - but I'm not terribly observant in that way.

The Back Up thing is great, but how can I promise to help if I don't think I'll see any of it?

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I've made sort of a hobby of being more connected to my sensory input. It isn't the same thing as people-watching-- I've been working on getting continuous conscious notice of what I hear, see, and feel. It's a slow process, but I've made considerable progress.

If this is something you actually want to do, I'd tentatively recommend just noticing the people around you (especially movement and emotional tone) without looking for anything in particular.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

I'm not that visually oriented, so sometimes just seeing people is a problem. It's one of the reasons I do badly in large crowds. I mostly perceive noise.

But that is something to try to do - I will attempt it.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Let me know how it goes. I find the world is more interesting when I pay attention to it.

When I said it's slow, I meant I've put in some 25 years on this. On the other hand, if you're spacy about one sense rather than, as in my case, having my internal monologue as close-to-primary experience, it might be easier for you.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

My experience was strangers who want to touch one's newborn baby, as if their dirty hands are okay because it's just a baaaaaby. No Way Jose!

[kiya]

I thought "black hair, maybe pregnant women, nobody will mention children", and was pleasantly surprised by people mentioning children.

Most of this is not from observation, however, so much as listening when others report their experiences.

[nosebeepbear.livejournal.com]

OK, is it just me? or was the "you asked the wrong question so I'm going to blow off your attempts to understand" thread incredibly obnoxious? (near the end of the comments on the second link).

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I'd call it obnoxious. That sort of behavior is ideologically driven-- the idea is that some people have been so mistreated that they're under no obligation to be polite to members of the mistreating group. This might be a scarier social experiment (not that the people who do it think it's an experiment) than the OSBP.

[gildedacorn.livejournal.com]

Absolutely.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

That sort of behavior is ideologically driven-- the idea is that some people have been so mistreated that they're under no obligation to be polite to members of the mistreating group.

You mean my conversation with kadymae that we've had on and offline since she left that original comment?

I am highly amused at this interpretation. But not surprised.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

If you overdo the harshness, how will you find out?

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

Overdo the harshness? You mean, watch my tone? (http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/429727.html)

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Actually, yes. I believe we're all human beings, and hurting other people's feelings is too much fun for a lot of us to completely take the brakes off it. If someone saying "that hurts" gets an answer of "go find some clues until you figure out how not to piss me off", I'd say you're allowing some really unleashed nastiness there.

On the other hand, I've realized that "go away and figure out how not to make me angry" is something which can be plausibly said by by abused people and by abusers.

It may be that the way you (and other anti-racists I've read) are handling things is the only method that can work. I see some risks.

The "racism is prejudice plus privilege" formulation takes the emphasis completely away from what's going on between the people who are talking.

Also, maybe there's a whole other side I haven't seen, but the anti-racism which has crossed my path consists entirely of trying to re-wire white people's emotional reactions. It doesn't seem connected to working on the banking system or the criminal justice system or any other of the major ways people get hurt because they're assigned a low status.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

If someone saying "that hurts" gets an answer of "go find some clues until you figure out how not to piss me off",

You need to provide a very specific example of what you are talking about in my post you are refering to because I have no idea what you are talking about.

Also, maybe there's a whole other side I haven't seen, but the anti-racism which has crossed my path consists entirely of trying to re-wire white people's emotional reactions. It doesn't seem connected to working on the banking system or the criminal justice system or any other of the major ways people get hurt because they're assigned a low status.

I think you've answered your own question, there.

Also, I dont consider myself an 'anti racist activist', so if by that term you are expecting someone who will orient themselves towards the needs of people who are trying (or at least say they are) to deal with their own racism, no, that's not my priority and therefore no, I'm not going to focus on their needs.

also.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

Find out what?

Re: also.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

That you're hurting people and not accomplishing anything but getting them to shut up. That you've building habits which mean you'll treat white people unfairly.

I realize that power is taken, not given, but if you have power, how you use it makes a difference.

Re: also.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

That you're hurting people and not accomplishing anything but getting them to shut up. That you've building habits which mean you'll treat white people unfairly.

But some of my best friends are white people!

Re: also.

[karnythia.livejournal.com]

The amount of privilege on display in this comment is amazing to me. So, the onus is on POC to be nice to people, not on white people not to be racist? Really? Newsflash, we're not here to hold your hands or to walk you through the wilderness of your own issues. She's having a conversation in her LJ and people intruded and received the appropriate response to peeing on someone's rug and demanding an explanation fro why she was upset by it. You don't get to dictate POC's behavior in spaces that we build for ourselves, and you certainly don't get to dictate our responses to racism. Thinking that you do? Man, I could write several pages on the idea that we're not allowed to have a harsh tone or be angry with people that feel entitled not just to our bodies, but to our minds and hearts. But, I doubt you could even begin to grasp what I'm saying since it's already clear that you're too busy playing the victim to even contemplate how rude your behavior is right now.

Re: also.

[witchsistah.livejournal.com]

So which tit (if you're a woman) should delux vivens suck first or should she start with your clit? If you're a guy, do you prefer she go to work on your cock or balls or alternate? If she swallows, would you be open to listening to her afterwards or do you want a nap?

[kadymae.livejournal.com]

I don't think that delux_vivens has been overly harsh with me.

In fact, I very much appreciate her tough minded (and ultimately gracious) application of socratic method.

but..

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

Mama said punch whitey in the throat!

[karnythia.livejournal.com]

Yes, because clearly her LJ exists to educate white people and guide them through these topics. It's not at all her personal space or anything.

[nosebeepbear.livejournal.com]

And to answer your actual question...

I've noticed this most especially with children. I've also noticed some people who seem to touch without even noticing, but that's more about the toucher than who's being touched.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

You might be interested in Suzette Haden Elgin's Try to Feel It My Way-- it's about people who have touch as a primary way of relating to the world. It's socially difficult for them in our culture, especially if they're large guys.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

IIRC, the whole list of people who get a lot of unwelcome touch (I'm sure that how much it happens depends on local sub-culture) includes black people, children, people with curly hair (this has got to be local variation--this only happens to me with one person), babies and children with red hair, and body builders.

[badgerbag.livejournal.com]

And disabled people. Just saying. People pat me. On the head. And grab me. And put things on top of me.

[sterlingspider.livejournal.com]

Being generally smaller then most of the people you know gets kind of tetchy as well.

No a simple hug hello does not mean I want to get swung around like a four year old, thank you. At least people aren't in the habit of picking me up and carrying me off so much as they did when I weighed 90 lbs.

[sterlingspider.livejournal.com]

Oh, also... no I DO NOT want a piggyback ride, seriously.
Even if my feet hurt. Put me the hell down.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

What!?!

Thank God I've never been thin.

[chaosdancer.livejournal.com]

I'm sure it occurs, though I haven't seen it and have never experienced it myself. Besides having unspectacular hair, I think I give off pretty strong "don't touch me" vibes - at least with people I don't know that well. Well, that and the fact that I tend to either shriek or punch people who grab me unexpectedly.