nancylebov: blue moon (Default)
[personal profile] nancylebov
Why there is no Jewish Narnia is an essay I don't entirely agree with, but it's an interesting overview of the question of why Jews are notable among science fiction writers but write very little fantasy, and there's nothing as distinctively Jewish as Lewis and Tolkien are Christian.

Points of disagreement: Kabbalah and Chasidism both have very lively fantasy elements, and I think the Midrash does as well, but the article writes them off as not normative. Well, they aren't part of the Judaism I grew up with (Conservative, which I think might be viewed as very toned down Misnaged (non-Chasidic) Orthodox Judaism. However, there are a fair number of Chasidic Jews (I don't know how many Jews are connected to the Kabbalah well enough to want to use it as fantasy elements but loosely enough that they'd be comfortable doing so) who could draw on their traditions, but either they aren't writing fantasy or it isn't getting to where the rest of us can see it.

Also, there's a substantial secular Jewish tradition, but it doesn't seem to be generating fantasy either.

I don't think the Holocaust has put a damper on the Jewish ability to write fantasy. "Where was the magic during the Holocaust?" might be in the back of potential authors' minds, but it's possible to write fantasy in which magic is discovered post-Holocaust, or set in a world which isn't connected to real history.

Speaking of fantasy where the rest of us can see it, the article reviews a contemporary Israeli fantasy which sounds like a lot of fun. I hope it's translated into English.

Sentence which might generate discussion: To put it crudely, if Christianity is a fantasy religion, then Judaism is a science fiction religion. If the former is individualistic, magical, and salvationist, the latter is collective, technical, and this-worldly. I'm not sure this is fair to either religion, but it'll probably stay in the back of my mind where I can see if it connects to anything.

Favorite sentence: As it happens, though, the author of these lines, Hagar Yanai, has recently attempted to fill this gap, along with a few other Israeli writers who have in the last few years begun to produce fantasy books—not magical realism or surrealism or postmodernism, but serious fantasy. Yay, us! The real fantasy, the serious fantasy, is the kind where the magic is unquestionably and literally part of the characters' world, and the world is at least intended to make logical sense.

Link, with a few comments about fantasy the article has missed, and a major contemporary Jewish fantasy writer.

Addendum: Many more Jewish fantasy writers are mentioned in the comments. The explanation for the lack of Jewish fantasy hitting it really big may be as simple as that very few writers manage it and Jews are a minority, so it could just be statistics.

Date: 2010-02-24 12:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] whswhs.livejournal.com
I find it bizarre to think of fantasy as individualistic and science fiction as collectivistic. On one hand, there is at least an important minority tradition in science fiction that is resolutely "American" and individualistic, exemplified by Heinlein and Anderson among others. On the other hand, the default mode in fantasy is the spectrum from feudalism through aristocracy to monarchy—and all of those are collectivistic ideas; the virtuous man in such a society is the one who knows his place in a hierarchy. This is true even in the relatively free-spirited world of Middle-Earth, where the relative status of Aragorn, Theoden, and Denethor and the fitness of Aragorn to marry Elrond's daughter are critical to the plot.

Date: 2010-02-24 01:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com
I'm not at all sure what the author had in mind with "collectivistic"-- it's plausible that larger issues hang on single choices in fantasy because it's easier to set up the world to do that, but characters with merely realistic ability to affect the world is hardly collectivism.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] madfilkentist - Date: 2010-02-24 01:54 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 10:32 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] whswhs.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 04:13 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jonbaker.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 09:20 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-25 01:25 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jonbaker.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-25 01:38 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-02-24 05:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] heron61.livejournal.com
Indeed, there's sadly no shortage of libertarian SF, and it's been one of the mainstays of US SF for at least the past 60 years.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] whswhs.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 08:48 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-02-24 12:59 am (UTC)
avram: (Default)
From: [personal profile] avram
Not just a major contemporary Jewish fantasy writer, but one who's used Jewish myth and folklore in his work. Most obviously (I think) the reference to the lamed-vav tzadikim in the Emperor Norton story in Sandman.

Date: 2010-02-24 01:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vr-trakowski.livejournal.com
Does Jane Yolen's Briar Rose (http://www.amazon.com/Briar-Rose-Jane-Yolen/dp/0765342308/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266973300&sr=8-1) count as fantasy?

Date: 2010-02-24 01:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com
I think it depends on your definition. Does Byatt's Possession count as fantasy?

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] vr-trakowski.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 01:27 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-02-24 01:37 am (UTC)
chomiji: Doa from Blade of the Immortal can read! Who knew? (Doa - books)
From: [personal profile] chomiji

I find it odd that he invokes Earthsea and quotes Le Guin, and then proceeds carry on about how important knights/feudalism etc. are to fantasy. Hello? Doesn't the existence of Earthsea (and some of Le Guin's more recent fantasy, for that matter) prove that you don't need the feudal European trappings for it to be fantasy? And where does Hughart's "Master Li" series fit into this argument, for that matter?

Also, I think Michael Chabon could write a Jewish fantasy anytime he felt like it. Gentlemen of the Road is already halfway there.

michael vassar

Date: 2010-02-24 04:50 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I think that worlds intended to make sense aren't "real fantasy" but are rather the specific result of Tolkein's influence. Gaiman, Douglas Adams and MANY others of the highest caliber would claim that there's more to 'real' fantasy than that.

Re: michael vassar

From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 11:05 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-02-24 10:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com
The tech/social level in Le Guin's Gifts trilogy (does it have a group name?) strikes me as possibly ancient Roman, rather than medieval, though the aggressive monotheistic religion in Voices is later.

I don't know if the Earthsea books map onto any specific historical period, or if they're just generic past. In any case, you're right, neither are specifically medieval.

I was thinking about Chahon-- Kavalier and Clay somewhat addresses the magic and the Holocaust question, but handles it through superhero comics written by the characters rather than directly.

That one is fantasy in the same sense that Possession is-- offers imaginative pleasures to the reader without having them be the world of the characters.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] papersky.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 12:58 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-02-24 03:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shweta-narayan.livejournal.com
...Jane Yolen seems rather badly missing from lists of major contemporary Jewish fantasy writers. As is her Very Scary book Briar Rose from discussion of Holocaust fantasy.

On an entirely different note, I'm currently reading a scholarly book on Jewish magical practices from the second temple period to the Rabbinic period (Ancient Jewish Magic: A History, by Gideon Bohak, University of Tel Aviv*). The author makes the point that actual Jewish magical practices have been widely ignored by scholars -- partly in reaction to the anti-semitic stereotypes of Jewish magicians.

Might this cultural pressure have some effect on Jewish writers of fantasy too?

(Recommended by [livejournal.com profile] grayrose76 for story research. I trust Rose on these matters, and the book is fascinating.)

Date: 2010-02-24 03:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dichroic.livejournal.com
Single useless point of anecdata: my Hebrew school library had a book that was a collection of stories about King Solomon and the magic he did. (Summoning demons, using them and a worm that could cut stone to build the Temple, etc.) Ignored by scholars, but if stories about Jewish magicians were available in a kids' format I'm guessing they were pretty well-known in popular culture. Though I'm not sure if by "ancient Jewish magical practices" you mean stories like that or actual practices meant to cause change in the world.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] shweta-narayan.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 03:32 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-02-24 10:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com
My feeling on this is that it was more a matter of modernity. the kind of Judaism I grew up with was simply too dignified and sensible for magic. This may have had some roots in the fear of being accused of being magicians, but it didn't feel that way.

There's something about Judaism I only found out about relatively recently-- some (most? all?) Orthodox Jews don't believe it's right to do individual petitionary prayer-- it's ok to pray for the community.

I'm so soaked in Christian culture that when I first heard about the rule, I assumed it was the person telling me being neurotically unwilling to ask for help, but later I found out it was a doctrine. And this goes back to identifying Judaism with collectivism.

In re "too sensible and dignified for magic": The Trickster and the Paranormal is written from the point of view that the occult is real, but is incompatible with organization. The more powerful and organized a religion gets, the more magic and miracles get forced to the edges. Miracles can be part of the tradition, but the possibly that they might still be happening is resisted.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] llennhoff.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 01:30 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jonbaker.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 04:19 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] shweta-narayan.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 08:20 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-25 01:41 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] shweta-narayan.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-25 01:48 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-02-24 08:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jonbaker.livejournal.com
More generally, and available online, there is Joshua Trachtenberg, Jewish Magic and Superstition (http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/jms/index.htm).

For ancient Jewish incantations and magic, particularly Rabbinic (Talmudic and before) magic, see Rebecca Macy Lesses (former RASF regular), Ritual Practices to Gain Power (http://www.amazon.com/dp/1563382199/), and Scholastic Magic (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0691010986/) by Michael Swartz.

Date: 2010-02-24 09:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ashnistrike.livejournal.com
I don't suppose I could persuade you to post a review when you're done? That sounds fascinating!

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] shweta-narayan.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 09:59 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ashnistrike.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 10:11 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] shweta-narayan.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 10:17 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-02-24 03:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dichroic.livejournal.com
I have no idea of his religion, but Peter S. Beagle's fantasy feels very Jewish to me - not in a religious-allegory sense like Narnia, but very culturally Jewish.

Date: 2010-02-24 03:28 am (UTC)
redbird: closeup of me drinking tea, in a friend's kitchen (Default)
From: [personal profile] redbird
He's either a New York Jew, or grew up around/knows a bunch of people who are, certainly.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] skywaterblue.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 08:05 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] nara-cat.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 11:12 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-02-24 03:29 am (UTC)
redbird: full bookshelves and table in a library (books)
From: [personal profile] redbird
If the Chasidim are writing fantasy, they're probably writing it in Yiddish.

Date: 2010-02-24 05:12 am (UTC)
avram: (Default)
From: [personal profile] avram
And I've read Jewish fairy tales and folklore stories, but they're generally stuff that's filed in the Judaica section of the bookstore.

Date: 2010-02-24 05:40 am (UTC)
ext_63737: Posing at Zeusaphone concert, 2008 (Default)
From: [identity profile] beamjockey.livejournal.com
One wonders how familiar the reviewer, Michael Weingrad, really is with modern fantasy.
Tolkien and Lewis’s gentility
(A use of the word which is new to me, though I'll bet it is not rare in the pages of Jewish Review of Books. I should get out more.)
would hardly bear comment were it not for the fact that they are not isolated examples in this regard, but only the most well-known figures within an entire literary genre—perhaps the only such genre—in which Jewish practitioners are strikingly rare. I cannot think of a single major fantasy writer who is Jewish, and there are only a handful of minor ones of any note. To no other field of modern literature have Jews contributed so little.

It is unwise to make this kind of statement if you mean "I cannot think, sitting right here at my keyboard right now, of a single major fantasy writer who is Jewish" rather than "I cannot think, having devoted years of research to studying the question, of a single major fantasy writer who is Jewish." I don't know which one is the case with Prof. Weingrad, but some of his assertions, sitting right here at my keyboard right now, fail to ring true. They are enough to carry an interesting barroom discussion, but may not withstand academic rigor.

Phyllis Eisenstein is one Jewish novelist who, it would seem, writes the sort of fantasy Weingrad is talking about. Perhaps she is within his umbrella of minor fantasy writers; perhaps he thinks she lives in Poughkeepsie-rather-than-Elfland (I would disagree); perhaps he has forgotten her; perhaps he has never read her.

Date: 2010-02-24 06:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] heron61.livejournal.com
Phyllis Eisenstein is one Jewish novelist who, it would seem, writes the sort of fantasy Weingrad is talking about.

I'd forgotten about her.

I did the most minimal bit of looking on google and turned up this rather extensive list, which includes both SF and fantasy authors. Including only fantasy authors that I've read, that's looking like Peter S. Beagle, Cory Doctorow [[1]], Phyllis Eisenstein, Esther Friesner, Lisa Goldstein, Ellen Kushner, & Jane Yolan, which is a pretty darn good list.

I'd say more that we have an abundance of Jewish fantasy authors, but a distinct lack of any who have created a really big hit fantasy novel or series (although The Last Unicorn comes very close)

[[1]] Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town is most definitely fantasy

Date: 2010-02-24 06:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] heron61.livejournal.com
I don't think the Holocaust has put a damper on the Jewish ability to write fantasy.

Indeed, Lisa Goldstein's The Red Magician is specifically about Jewish magic and the holocaust.

I can't think of that much Jewish fantasy that's set in fantasy worlds (other than, of course, some of Jane Yolan's work), but there's a moderate amount of urban fantasy.

Date: 2010-02-24 07:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] smallship1.livejournal.com
I'm amazed nobody's mentioned Avram Davidson. Not even in that extensive list.

Date: 2010-02-24 04:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jonbaker.livejournal.com
Or Robert Silverberg, for the Majipoor series.

I suppose, there is no Narnia, because there's no major fantasy novel series based on Jewish mythology - Moses/Exodus/Sinai, the Judges, the Kings, the Temple in construction and destruction, the Exiles, and the Final Redemption.

And anything less well hidden than Narnia would be relegated to ethnic literature, fit only for yeshiva children.

Yes, as a yeshiva child, I really did not get that Narnia was Christian stories.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] kiya - Date: 2010-02-24 05:35 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] henrytroup.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 05:43 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] skywaterblue.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 08:08 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] whswhs.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 08:52 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-02-24 10:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] osewalrus.livejournal.com
Thanks for the link. It feels like the author is more concerned with why certain major authors from his childhood are not replicated in style by Jews, which is a rather different question.

Lewis was actually writing a parable. Tolkien was trying to create his own world where he could retell certain themes he found attractive in Old English and Christian fantasy. Both creating towering myths rooted in their cultures and spawned a host of imitators. Jews attracted to writing fantasy have found many of the elements copied by others less attractive.

Date: 2010-02-24 04:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] richardthinks.livejournal.com
So. Apart from the fact that there seem to be loads of Jewish fantasy authors, I think Weingrad's argument can be handily demolished from within its own terms: his definitions of fantasy and science fiction and the differences between them just don't match up with the catalogues of works classified under those two headings.

I think he's probably right to focus on Tolkien as a key figure since, IIRC, the separation of "fantasy" and "sf" was an artifact of the publishing/marketing industry and became widespread sometime after LoTR proved to be massively popular and there was an established market for more works in that vein. But his argument rests on creating a novel entity - Tolkien/Lewis - as a genre progenitor, and outside of marketing categories I don't think there's any reality to such a figure: neither author fits neatly into the argument points he draws from the other. Tolkien might have been motivated by "cultural reclamation" (and you can find Victorian precedents for that, especially William Morris) but I'd say that was at most a minor concern for Lewis (who fits better with antecedents Bunyan, Chesterton and Blake), while Lewis' Christianity is pretty well submerged in Tolkien (or at least read through a heavy "northernizing" veil - that "pagan" element that Weingrad abuses so merrily): it's tempting to group the two authors together because of their personal relationship, but really their similarities are only superficial, and anyway might be explained as aspects of a British nationalist sensibility, within which Rowling (and Wyndham? And Alan Moore?) could also be contained. Both were clearly writing in a tradition that included Swift, Dunsany and Thomas More whom Weingrad would exclude. Far more troubling to the genre category, though, are May, Bear, Herbert and Moorcock, the last of which I'm tempted to describe as a critic of Mani, comparable to Pullman as a critic of Lewis. His non-definition of sf, meanwhile: collective, technical, and this-worldly obviously excludes great swathes of the genre (Dick, Gibson and Wells leap to mind) and is troubled by Clarke's famous dictum about the equivalence of technology and magic.

At root, he seems to be asking "why is there no Jewish equivalent to the religious fantasy of C. S. Lewis or the commercially successful fantasy of J. K. Rowling?" The first question gives an awful lot of credit to Lewis as some sort of historically inevitable Christian manifestation: I'd rather think he was an individual who happened to be both Christian and quite good at writing stories people wanted to buy. The second question, of how to replicate Rowling's success in new works of every persuasion, has dominated children's fiction for the past decade, so his novel contribution here is "also make it Jewish." And his conclusion seems to be remarkably like a fantastical work of cultural reclamation: it's because we Jews are too modern, too realistic, too rational to bother with that old, extinct paganism, he says.

I was going to go on to say, "still there's a lot to muse here of value," but I think I've overrun my room already. I am at least tempted to read the books in question, although I doubt I'm equipped to judge if they're particularly Jewish in outlook, whatever that might mean.

Date: 2010-02-24 05:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com
Wow. You've got a much richer set of sub-traditions than I do. Offhand, I've just got serious/literal vs. wordplay (this one was developed by someone who was tired of seeing Rowling denigrated compared to Tolkien, when it's arguable that she's trying to do something very different), and epic vs. heroic which covers Tolkien vs. Howard. And world-building vs. dream logic.

Do you have names for the groupings you cite?

Far more troubling to the genre category, though, are May, Bear, Herbert and Moorcock, the last of which I'm tempted to describe as a critic of Mani,. I don't see what those four have in common. And, Mani?

His non-definition of sf, meanwhile: collective, technical, and this-worldly obviously excludes great swathes of the genre (Dick, Gibson and Wells leap to mind) -- I think the later utopian novels by Wells meet those specs.

If you want to keep on going, here or in your own lj, I'm interested.

I'm not sure what a particularly Jewish in outlook would be, but Rowling isn't it, if only because of the somewhat implausible acceptance of Christmas in the wizarding world (and why don't they have their own religion and holidays?) and the high intensity value placed on self-sacrifice. Afaik, self-sacrifice may be necessary in Judaism, but it doesn't have special miraculous power.

Sidetrack: I'm convinced (without any proof) that Snape is a recycling of anti-Semitic stereotypes which had been in the stew (as Tolkien says about myth) to turn into something different and harmless. Snape is sallow-skinned, dark-haired, hook-nosed, intelligent, an outsider, and under constant suspicion of being a traitor. Afaik, Rowling didn't expect her readers to like him.


(no subject)

From: [identity profile] etrangere.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 05:25 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] richardthinks.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-24 06:50 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-25 01:24 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2010-02-25 02:28 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] richardthinks.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-25 02:30 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-25 03:39 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-02-24 05:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] richardthinks.livejournal.com
D'oh. I could've made my post shorter by saying "What osewalrus said."
Also missing: any mention of RPGs, movies, cartoons, comics, graphic novels: if you're concerned with fantasy after Tolkien and up to Rowling, this is rather a big oversight.

Date: 2010-02-27 04:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] inquisitiveravn.livejournal.com
There's one brief mention of D&D in Hebrew, but that's it.

Now, the original Monster Manual featured clay golems, but that's the only remotely Jewish thing I remember from the game which I recently realized I haven't played in twenty years. I also remember a lot of cleric stuff being weirdly Christian-ish, especially the spells, but also the weapon restrictions.



(no subject)

From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-27 04:52 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] inquisitiveravn.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-27 04:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] richardthinks.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-27 09:18 pm (UTC) - Expand

Darrell Schweitzer- Sir Julian stories

Date: 2010-02-24 05:41 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I always liked the Sir Julian Stories in 'Swords against Darkness'. Collected as 'We Are All Legends Now'.

Jewish? if he's not, oh well.

Bruce

Date: 2010-02-25 01:19 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I'd suspect Beagle (I'm working on The Last Unicorn now) counts. No one's mentioned Neil Gaiman yet?

Date: 2010-02-25 01:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com
I did indirectly-- he's in the discussion I linked to at [livejournal.com profile] weirdjews.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jonbaker.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-25 01:46 am (UTC) - Expand

December 2025

S M T W T F S
 123456
78910111213
141516 17181920
21222324252627
28293031   

Most Popular Tags

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags
Page generated Mar. 15th, 2026 04:31 pm
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios