LJ cuts--do you care?

[nancylebov]

I just got lightly thwapped for posting longish pieces to my lj without using cuts. Is there a consensus about cuts for length being desirable?
Do you care personally? If so, how long is too long?

Comments

[nosebeepbear.livejournal.com]

I use cuts for length when I remember because people seem to prefer it. I find that a teensy bit annoying because "please use an LJ cut" sounds like it equates to "I'm not actually reading your crappy posts" because otherwise I don't see why length would be an issue.

If I post something that contains bits I don't want to force on people (e.g. movie spoilers, gross stuff, oversharing, joke punch lines...) then I will use a cut to achieve informed consent.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I took it a little more gently than that--as "I'm not interested in everything you write, so I want to be able to skip the parts I'm not interested in without having to do a long scroll-down. However, I am interested in some of what you write--that's why I want convenient access to it".

I've seen blogs split up by subject so that you can choose to see just the parts you want. Frex, Unqualified Offerings offers everything, just the comics critism, or everything but the comics criticism. I suppose you could get a similar effect in lj by having several ljs.

[bradhicks.livejournal.com]

Anything over five paragraphs long, I tend to prefer for it to have cuts. Any graphic taller than 200 pixels, or wider than 480 pixels (standard banner width), I prefer to have hidden by a cut. All personality quiz results that return giant paintings or celebrity pictures, I seriously prefer to be behind a labeled cut, so I can snub them. But those are just my preferences; it's your journal. You should be warned that you can not make everybody happy, whether you use the cuts or not. Some people won't read anyone who doesn't use cuts. Some people hate cuts with a fiery passion.

[supergee.livejournal.com]

That's about my suggestion. Five paragraphs seems a reasonable length.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

I think they should be used for spoilers, TMI stuff that might squick people -- sex life or eye surgery -- and when they get very long, because while people might want to read them once, they might get annoyed scrolling past them on their friends list every time.

I cut when something's more than about a screenful.

[still-asking.livejournal.com]

I agree with first reasons - TMI and spoilers, but I prefer to scroll than click, so I'm in a bit of a minority it appears.

That said, I also use them when I've got more than a paragraph that is at right angles to the main topic - i.e. supposing I'm pissed off because some sales person or tech support place gave me a load of b.s. - I'd summarize the b.s. behind a cut so those ppl interested in particulars could get them. Not a case of Too Much Information, but of Optional Information.

[rfmcdpei.livejournal.com]

I use LJ cuts when a piece exceeds a certain length (say, three or five paragraphs out of a longish essay), when TMI is involved, or when I make a digression from the main thrust of my piece. They're a useful tool.

Oh, and that Geoff Ryman piece is coming.

[dglenn.livejournal.com]

No, there is no consensus. There are different schools of thought. There's some sketchy preliminary research suggesting that in general using an lj-cut means most people won't read that entry, but of course there will be a few people who simply unsubscribe if you write too many long entries without cuts. There's a lot to theferrett's philosophical stance against them.

The closest thing to a consensus is the notion that entries with multiple large images in them should be cut. (There'll be differing opinions on whether a single image -- or the first image of a multiple-image entry -- should be cut. I say, "please be kind to those of us with dialup connections".) Note that certain communities have explicit guidelines for posting to them.

Personally, I cut for

1. memes (if longish or "quiz-type"),
2. dreams (if I provide any detail),
3. large images,
4. occasionally for TMI or "not work safe", and
5. for "I really don't care whether anyone reads this part and don't expect most people to be interested" or "this is more of a footnote" sections (dreams are really an example of this).

I don't use them often, and yes, sometimes people complain that I've gone on too long (but does that mean that I should've used a cut tag, or just that I should have edited better?). I don't know how many people silently consider me too verbose, of course. But I've got a decent number of readers and the even more wordy (but they're better words) weasel with the extra 't' is extremely widely read.

Personally, when reading, I find cuts occasionally useful, but often annoying if I do want to read what's behind them. Yes, it's convenient when something I wanted to skip over is cut, but it's extra steps interrupting the flow of reading my friends page when I have to click through to a cut. And yes, it means that if the cut-label is only borderline interesting, I'll be more likely to just skip it if I'm in a hurry.

I do appreciate cuts for any element (usually an image) wide enough to break the layout of my friends page and cause my browser to require horizontal scrolling to read the rest of the entries. Really long lines without spaces (such as a ridiculously extended "Aaaaaaarrrrrgh!"), some tables, and text with long lines formatted with HTML "don't reformat this" tags) can all do this.

There are also problems ... well, limitations ... in the usefulness of cut tags in general. They work really well for one thing, and suck for most of the other ways one is tempted to use them.

Remember that once someone has clicked through -- and this also applies to anyone who comes in because someone else linked to your entry -- the cuts are invisible. So don't write the cut text in such a way that it depends on the reader having just seen the cut-label (I sometimes repeat the contents of the text="" field of the lj-cut tag as the first sentence of the tagged text), and if the intent is really to "set aside" a section as a footnote or sidebar, find some way of marking it as such when looking at the complete text. If you're providing "sectional" entry points, consider marking the ends of the sections (maybe with something like <hr width="25%">), because where the next cut tag would've started won't be obvious on its own.

And unless the lead-in paragraph is enough to make the point of the cut text clear, put an informative label on the lj-cut to make it easier for people to decide to bother to click through.

Those tips will make lj-cuts more useful. But as I said, there's no consensus on whether to use them.

TheFerrett on cut tags

[dglenn.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's the first time he addressed it, but I did find something theferrett wrote about lj-cut here.

Re: TheFerrett on cut tags

[supergee.livejournal.com]

theferrett is a publicity-crazed asshole (or perhaps plays one on TV). If I wanted to be one, I wouldn't use cuts either.

Re: TheFerrett on cut tags

[dglenn.livejournal.com]

He doesn't come across as an asshole to me, but he does come across as somewhat loudmouthed, so I can understand a differing opinion there. But the reason I read him is that I find him usually entertaining, frequently insightful (and when he gets something terribly wrong, there's usually good food for thought in the comments from people telling him so), and fairly often both at the same time. His motivation isn't as important to me as his results.

Obviously whether one takes the advice given in a post specifically about how to become more popular is going to depend on one's own goals for one's journal, but the general observations there about cut tags are interesting and good to know, even if they're incomplete or one-sided. I am not saying, "you should do this because TheFerrett says so." I am saying, "he makes some interesting points that I think are important to be consider when making up one's own mind.

It's good to read the comments disagreeing with him on that point, as well.

[snippy]

I use cuts when I think people will find me boring.

I like cuts, and I usually click through them. But I don't think I have the right to ask other people to organize their journal for my convenience. The reason I like them is for ease of scrolling through my friends list, during which I open in a new tab anything that I might want to comment on or look at more carefully; then when I click into a new tab, there's the whole entry with any comments all on one page.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Thanks, everyone. So far as my reading is concerned, I'm more on the "cuts interrupt the flow of reading" side than "long posts are a pain if I don't want to read them" side.

So far as Input Junkie is concerned, I'll probably just experiment with using or not using cuts.

Thwapped?

[fixx.livejournal.com]

More than 5 paragraphs, more than a page, etc. I *tolerate* all sorts. Newbies tend to make longer posts. Depressed and Suicidal people tend to make longer posts. I tolerate these people more than seasoned, programmer types whose LJ accounts are more than a year old, and who I believe ought to know better.

I've been trying to tune the use of my LJ cuts to comply with whatever I find annoying when I am the one reading. Scrolling through my "friends" is to me like reading the front page of the paper; I'm more interested in the gist of "the news" and then when I have more time, turning to "page C-5" for the rest of the story. While I have a broadband connection, I try to be considerate of those who do not. I know that longer posts increase the amount of time it takes for a page of 25 full entries to load. It is my impression at least that 25 entries with sufficient use of LJ cuts take less time to load.

In my opinion, hearing someone is going to a convention is news. Contact info pertaining to said trip is also news. A plea of some sort related to that, such as your plea for "slogans" that curse out spammers is at least timely. A long list of "new" slogans, *double*spaced* though entertaining and of potential interest to shoppers, is not news, perhaps advertising, and were it *my* entry, I'd have placed it on "page C-5".

Although I cannot be sure that you were referring only to my comment, on your previous post, given that mine is the only comment visible, I'm going to assume that it is mine you were referring to. "Thwapped"? I guess, I didn't mean it like that. Lightly" ? I'd say very lightly, My comment (http://www.livejournal.com/users/nancylebov/4289.html?thread=18369#t18369).

May I add that when I have put as much time into NAGGING someone to join LJ as I have done with you ( nancylebov ), I feel a slight responsibility to try to get them off to a good start, which occasionally means clue-ing them in on such subjects as LJ-cuts, helping them make or acquire icons, edit existing entries, post links and LJ names... in fact as others have done for me when I was the newbie. I made my comment after looking over your short posting history and though it does not appear that you make long posts often, it does appear your long posts are getting longer, and NEVER include LJ-cuts, hence my comment. To be fair, I saw only your PUBLIC posts as I am not in your friends list, so for all I know you have been using LJ-cut and I just don't know about it.

Please note, I have not as yet removed you from my list of LJ friends. My intent was to prevent the need by bringing the method to your attention and offer you some helpful instruction.

LJ cuts?

[celticferret.livejournal.com]

I don't remember coming across them in my readings about proper behavior here.

My stuff is mostly in short paragraphs. A writing style I had to change to when my concentration started to fail me. I can't read long unbroken paragraphs.

I mostly divide my material up by topic. I don't imagine every one loves my critters or wants be to whine about being sick.

KG

[mneme]

I think cuts for length are desirable, and use them if a post contains largish images or "feels long".

I also, because of how I end up reading LJ, disable cut tags on my friends page (go figure).