Anti-depressant Vitamins

[nancylebov]

Recently, I've been taking Quixtar's Nutrilite® Double X® Vitamin/Mineral/Phytonutrient tablets, and I've found that they have a remarkably strong anti-depressant effect on me. They shut down my negative self-talk. I find I'm smiling at strangers on the street. At Balticon, dcseain (who was working for me) noticed after I'd mentioned that I was in a better mood than usual, that I was calmer with both the customers and him. There's one effect which is a little annoying, but probably good--in some ways, I'm less patient (frex, with nominally fun activities that I wasn't enjoying), but I think that's because I've got more concern with how I'm spending my time.

Unfortunately, there are two downsides. One is that I was concerned about having enough for Balticon so I was spacing them out. The withdrawal is nasty--I was more depressed/more negative about myself than my previous baseline. I don't know how long it would take for withdrawal to end, but at some point, I'm going to experiment and find out.

The other is that I don't know what's so special about them. I've taken other vitamins, and they haven't had a striking anti-depressant effect. I'm concerned about not knowing what in the Quixtar vitamins might be important--I'd like to know what else I can use if Quixtar or Nutrilite changes the formulation, so I'm posting the ingredients here in case anyone's got some ideas about what might be going on. Afaik, they're generally pretty likable vitamins, but the way I've reacted to them is unusual.


DOUBLE X Vitamin/ Mineral/Phytonutrient
A-4300, A-0244, A-4318, 10-3563
SUGGESTED USE: For adults. Consume 1 gold, 1 silver, and 1 bronze tablet two times daily, with meals. Or, for more convenience, tailor your daily consumption to fit your schedule.
Molybdenum (from Molybdenum amino acid chelate) 25 mcg 33% 50 mcg 67%
S u p p l e m e n t F a c t s Potassium (from Potassium chloride) 40 mg 1% 80 mg 2%
Serving Size: 1 gold multivitamin tablet, 1 silver multimineral tablet and 1 bronze Phytonutrient tablet Alpha Lipoic Acid 5 mg * 10 mg *
Inositol 12.5 mg * 25 mg *
Amount % DV Amount % DV
Lycopene (from Tomato extract)(fruit) 1 mg * 2 mg *
Per Serving Per Serving Per Day Per Day
Lutein Esters (from Marigold extract)(Tagetes erecta)(flower) 1 mg * 2 mg *
Vitamin A (from beta carotene and Vitamin A Acetate)
Citrus Bioflavonoid Dehydrate (Grapefruit,
(75% as natural beta carotene) 5,000 IU 100% 10,000 IU 200%
Mandarin Orange, Lemon)(whole fruit and peel) 50 mg * 100 mg *
Vitamin C (from Ascorbic acid,
Dried Kale (Brassica oleracea acehala)(leaf) 37.5 mg * 75 mg *
Acerola Concentrate [fruit]) 250 mg 417% 500 mg 833%
Alfalfa concentrate (leaf, stem) 35 mg * 70 mg *
Vitamin D (from Vitamin D3) 200 IU 50% 400 IU 100%
Mixed tocopherols 25 mg * 50 mg *
Vitamin E (from d-alpha Tocopherol succinate) 75 IU 250% 150 IU 500%
Apple extract powder (skin) 25 mg * 50 mg *
Thiamin (from Thiamine mononitrate,
Asparagus powder (shoot) 25 mg * 50 mg *
Thiamine hydrochloride) 5.62 mg 375% 11.25 mg 750%
Holy basil extract blend (Magnesium Carbonate,
Riboflavin 6.37 mg 375% 12.75 mg 750%
Holy basil extract (leaf), dextrin, dicalcium phosphate) 25 mg * 50 mg *
Niacin (from Niacinamide and Niacin) 20 mg 100% 40 mg 200%
Blueberry powder (berry) 25 mg * 50 mg *
Vitamin B6 (from Pyridoxine hydrochloride) 7.5 mg 375% 15 mg 750%
Grape extract (skin, seed) 25 mg * 50 mg *
Folic Acid 400 mcg 100% 800 mcg 200%
Oregano powder extract (leaves) 25 mg * 50 mg *
Vitamin B12 (from cyanocobalamin) 22.5 mcg 375% 45 mcg 750%
Prune extract (Prunus domestica)(skin) 25 mg * 50 mg *
Biotin 150 mcg 50% 300 mcg 100%
Rosemary extract (leaves) 25 mg * 50 mg *
Pantothenic Acid (from Calcium pantothenate) 25 mg 250% 50 mg 500%
Broccoli dehydrate (floret) 24 mg * 48 mg *
Calcium (from Calcium carbonate) 375 mg 37% 750 mg 75%
Cranberry extract (whole fruit) 25 mg * 50 mg *
Iodine (from Potassium iodide) 75 mcg 50% 150 mcg 100%
Watercress concentrate (leaf, stem) 14 mg * 28 mg *
Magnesium (from Magnesium oxide) 150 mg 37.5% 300 mg 75%
Parsley dehydrate (leaf, stem) 12.5 mg * 25 mg *
Zinc (from Zinc amino acid chelate) 7.5 mg 50% 15 mg 100%
Pomegranate extract (fruit) 12.5 mg * 25 mg *
Selenium (from Selenium yeast) 50 mcg 71% 100 mcg 142%
Sage powder extract (leaves) 12.5 mg * 25 mg *
Copper (from Copper amino acid chelate) 1 mg 50% 2 mg 100%
Horseradish dehydrate (root) 1 mg * 2 mg *
Manganese (from Manganese amino acid chelate) 2.5 mg 125% 5 mg 250%
Chromium (from Chromium amino acid chelate) 60 mcg 50% 120 mcg 100% *Daily Value not established
OTHER INGREDIENTS: MICROCRYSTALLINE CELLULOSE, GUM ACACIA, CROSCARMELLOSE SODIUM, MALTODEXTRIN, SILICON DIOXIDE, GELATIN, CORN STARCH, MAGNESIUM STEARATE, NUTRITIONAL
YEAST, HYDROXYPROPYL METHYLCELLULOSE, SUCROSE, CORN OIL, SOYBEAN OIL, HYDROXYPROPYL CELLULOSE, CARNAUBA WAX.
Dist. by Access Business Group International LLC, Ada, MI 49355 NO ARTIFICIAL COLORS, FLAVORS, OR PRESERVATIVES ADDED Visit our website at www.nutrilite.com

Comments

[cleverthylacine]

It might be that you had a hidden deficiency of some nutrient that you didn't know about, because I'm not seeing St John's Wort or omega-3 fish oil or any of the other known natural antidepressants on there; however, large doses of the B vitamins do help some depressed folks.

[freyas-fire.livejournal.com]

It looks like a fairly high concentration of antioxidants, plus there's a good level of B6 and B12, which help alleviate stress and provide a boost of energy (if you get flushed and/or break out in a sweat shortly after taking the vitamins, it's the B12). The vitamin D can also help boost your energy levels. Scientists have recently discovered that a good majority of people have vitamin D deficiencies, mainly because we use a lot of sunscreen, which blocks the body's natural ability to produce it when exposed to sunlight. Symptoms of deficiency are very similar to symptoms of fibromyalgia: fatigue, muscle pains/stiffness, difficulty in concentrating ("brain fog"), etc. I'd have to look up the other ingredients, but I'm pretty sure the ones I listed are the main ones.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Thanks. No sweat or flushing. It could be the D--I don't do whole milk or get a lot of sunlight.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

More exactly, I don't do cow's milk (lactose intolerance). Wikipedia says that cheese, yogurt, and such (which I do eat) typically aren't fortified with vitamin D.

I can handle goat's milk, I'm pretty sure, but I don't usually get around to it, and I bet it's not fortified with D anyway.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Scientists have recently discovered that a good majority of people have vitamin D deficiencies, mainly because we use a lot of sunscreen, which blocks the body's natural ability to produce it when exposed to sunlight.

There are a few cases of rickets coming back, for goodness's sake. Kids aren't outside in the sun, if they ARE outside, they're sunscreened and covered to avoid skin cancer, and a lot of them have dairy alergies. No sun and no fortified dairy, and you can actually get serious deficiency diseases.

[freyas-fire.livejournal.com]

Yup. You got it! :)

[halimede.livejournal.com]

If you have amalgam fillings, you might want to be careful with this one: the Alpha Lipoic acid has a molecular shape that chelates mercury (and some other heavy metals, which we all have in our bodies with current levels of polution). Chelate means it binds with them for a short time, but long enough for the body to get rid of it via the liver.

People who are treating mercury toxicity with this, have sometimes described the side effects as 'mildly obsessive euphoria'. When one stops taking them, the mercury that was bound with the ALA redistributes, and that makes one feel sick.

Side-note: Note that people who treat mercury toxicity with this take it every 3 hours, including at night, because the biological half-life of ALA is about that, and at the end of every 3 hour period there is some redistribution. This varies a bit: some fast metabolizers take it more often, other people can go at an 8 hour schedule.

If it isn't the ALA, I'd bet on B vitamins too, especially B12 which is present in alfalfa etc., and a lot of people are deficient. If you're also prone to anemia this is even more probable.

[halimede.livejournal.com]

Oh, and the flush would only be noticeable with a certain form of the vitamin, and at a high enough dosage. So B vitamins are still a *very* good possibility, even in the absence of flushing. Or anemia, for that matter.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I don't feel sick when I'm withdrawing from the vitamins--I get depressed. Specifically, the habitual self-criticism and self-dengration get really strong. Is that a mercury symptom?

Not that it would necessarily help if it isn't a listed symptom. I came up with "Alien Metabolism, please medicate carefully" (available as a button) because a friend found that Provigil was putting him to sleep. I suspect I don't know anyone with a normal metabolism.

[halimede.livejournal.com]

Specifically, the habitual self-criticism and self-dengration get really strong. Is that a mercury symptom?

Yep, can be. The effects of mercury on mood and mental state is very strong.

"Alien Metabolism, please medicate carefully"

Heh. That one is very recognizable. :) I got lucky: doctor's have no clue about my biochemistry, but there's a biochemist I know who was able to, based on a history of how I react to certain substances, explain and predict how I would react to stuff. He's been right on every count. So, not alien, just individual. Modern medicine tries to medicate according to averages, that biochemist reasons from understanding. Much better. :)

[velvet-wood.livejournal.com]

Betcha five bucks your friend is ADHD, probably severe. :) Stimulants act as depressants (and vice versa) to most ADHD folk. It's one of the diagnosis criteria. The Adderol my son takes would make any _normal_ person bounce off the freakin' walls, and instead it stops him from doing so. Caffeine soothes him to sleep. Codiene... hah. He was awake all night.

Alien Metabolisms

[dglenn.livejournal.com]

I have a paradoxical reaction to caffeine, sort of. It makes me feel very very drowsy but keeps me from actually falling asleep. (It also toggles the headache bit: it can help with an existing headache but is likely to give me a headache if I didn' have one already.) I don't know how any other stimulants affect me other than theobromine (probably too weak compared to other xanthines to be meaningful in that regard, but it does help with migraines in largeish doses, after which I get crashy) and theophylline (which does more or less what caffeine does). But pseudoehpedrine will make me jumpy and jittery and twitchy and hideously uncomfortable (I'm told this means any other decongestant will do this to me as well; I've not seen a need to verify that experimentally).

And as for narcotics, well they really don't do much to me at all besides taking pain down from an eleven to a nine on a scale of ten. (That is, from "get me a circular saw so I can remove my fucking arms now, or just shoot me, but do it quick," to merely "oh God this hurts".) If the pain was what was sucking all my energy, I can feel a lot more alert and energetic after taking Vicodin. If the pain was all that was keeping me awake, I can fall right to sleep when the Vicodin kicks in (and wake up four hours later when the pain comes back up). The only time I felt anything like what other people have described from Vicodin/Percoset was when a dentist gave me some after a root canal on a day when my fibromyalgia pain was only moderate (i.e. not bad enough to take narcotics for by itself). It made the mouth pain go down to a manageable level, made the fibromyalgia pain vanish, and gave me just a touch of the floaty feeling I've heard others describe.

Codeine is a little trickier because I can only get it with caffeine. It tends to make my back and ribs hurt, but not as badly as whatever had been hurting so badly before. And I have to pay a little more attention to stay exactly in time with the rest of the band. And the caffeine makes me not sleep.

I don't know whether this points to ADHD or just a major resistance to some classes of drugs and paradoxical sensitivity to others. (Antidepressants, for example, make me acutely depressed. An anti-anxiety drug made me an angry, shouting, wall-punching, verbally abusive asshole. These were both prescribed to regulate sleep, for the fibromyalgia.) I'm also very resistant to Novacaine, and a lot of drugs are only effective for two thirds as long as all the instructions and references say they'll last. (Overachieving kidneys perhaps?)

But my reaction to alcohol is normal. And the beta blocker I'm on is doing wonders on the migraine front without affecting my blood pressure any.

Re: Alien Metabolisms

[velvet-wood.livejournal.com]

Actually, fibro patients are known for having bizarre drug reactions. When given benadryl, for example, I experience difficulty breathing. The affect gets worse the more I'm given, up to the point of my lungs collapsing. Try telling an ER, when you've come in for an anaphalactic reaction to a spider bite or some such, that they can't shoot you up with benadryl and watch it break their brains. Things that should put me to sleep _sometimes_ make me hyper. But sometimes they put me to sleep. Sometimes it depends on dosage, or how much pain I'm in, sometimes it seems to be random. Stimulants don't usually put me to sleep, but they frequently simply don't _do_ anything. I have an _extremely_ high narcotic tolerance, and at this point, most of them might as well be sugar pills, and the ones that do help, the sudden 'crash' of returning pain afterward is... bad. It got to the point where I was basically crippled. Couldn't do anything, really. Just lay there, exhausted and hurting and miserable. Then I got a new doctor. I _love_ my new doctor. I was fairly functional (could do what _had_ to be done, and about once a month I could manage something I _wanted_ to do, too) on 2 methadone a day. Methadone has a 24 hour halflife, so there was always some in my system, which helped with the up and down thing. From my new doctor I expected, at best, to maintain the status quo. That wasn't good enough for her, though, so she tried to fix things. I was, of course, skeptical. Now... I'm practically worshipful.

Here's what she has me taking:

Primary pain med: Duragesic patch (was dopey as hell for the first three weeks, but now don't notice any side effects, but the adhesive is a pain in the ass. I've ordered a box of teguderms to cover the stupid things with, because they _will not stick_ on their own). I used to take Ultram, which is an non-narcotic pain reliever that works amazingly well for _some_ fibro patients. It worked great as my only pain med for about five years, then I became tolerant to it. If you want to try it (non-narcotic, so it works differently than most opiods, which is why it does so well on some people), be sure they give you ultram/tramadol and _NOT_ ultracett, which is a low dose of ultram with tylenol. Ultracett doesn't work worth a damn. Ultram works pretty well. Two of them, does, anyway. One never did anything. But I'm fairly large, so that might be the reason.

Breakthrough pain: ye olde standby, vicoden w/tylenol. woo. Still helps in high enough doses, though.

Fibro pain/nerve pain/ow why the hell is _that_ hurting pain: Lyrica. Lyrica is a neurological analgesic designed for nerve pain from diabetes and scabbies, and for the fibro patients it works for, it works _great_. Started out taking it only at night, and got my first good nights sleep in ten years. Took for a week or two, then added a daytime one. It's pretty much totally eliminated the draining, nagging aches and pains that were just _there_ no matter what I did or didn't do. Also eliminated sharp, shooting pains along my bones, and the constant 'bruised' feeling my skin had (except during and right after migraines... I suspect _nothing_ will get rid of the 'rolled down a hill in a barrel of rocks' feeling caused by a migraine, except possibly IV demoral!) and other little pains that I hadn't even been noticing. Good stuff... but I have no _clue_ what it costs, since she gave me about three months worth of samples.

con't

Re: Alien Metabolisms

[velvet-wood.livejournal.com]

Energy/fatigue: 2g thryoid. I consistently test in the low-normal range. Her philosophy is that if people feel like shit in low-thyroidish ways, why not get them up to a medium level and see how they feel? Because there's been studies showing that some people do not adequately utilize the amount of thyroid they have in their blood... they actually become tolerant of their own hormone, and so are walking around with normal blood levels and still hypothryoid. For me, this was a really _amazing_ difference. I woke up for the first time in years. Awake, alert, my memory partially restored (if still not quite what it was), and in an optimistic (well, for me, anyway) mood, with energy to _do stuff_! Yay! Stuff! Wheee! My heat intolerance has decreased, too, but I honestly don't know where to put the credit for that... not sure when or how it happened. Could be the thyroid, though, I suppose. Thyroid is _dirt cheap_. Like $5 a month without insurance. Note also that I did _not_ exhibit the 'most' classic signs of hypothyroidism. I was tired, achy, had sleep issues, etc., but I did not have the dry skin, hair loss, or sensitivity to cold that they really look for. In fact, I have fairly oily skin, enough hair for half a dozen normal people (seriously. It's to my waist and my pony tail is like four normal sized ponytails put together. If it'd thin out a bit, I'd be thrilled. Especially in summer), and I love cold. Cold good. Except on the bottoms of my feet, cause it makes them cramp. I'd keep my house at 65 degrees if I could afford to. If you want, I'll look up the studies... because a lot of fibro patients notice marked improvement when treated for hypothryoidism.


Muscle relaxant is currently tizanidine, but with the duragesic patch, the sedative effect is too strong and I'm going to ask her to put me on something weaker when I go in friday. Maybe flexiril. Not Soma... soma messes with your liver and will cause narcotics and some other analgesics to stop working correctly if used on a regular basis. It also can make me high as a kite, so good to avoid anyway. :)

Other than that... half a mg of melatonin (works better than any prescribed sleep medication I've ever tried) at night with my nighttime lyrica and muscle relaxant, sublingual b12 (and a shot whenever I go in), calcium/magnesium/vit. D3 supplements, and devil's claw root (at least 400mg, 3X/day). And creative monohydrate (loading dose) before and after exercise whenever I can remember to take it.

The things that actually changed for me are the B12, Lyrica, Thyroid, and patch, and they've made a _huge_ difference. The other day I rode my bike for three miles, came home, realized the lawn needed mowing, (three foot high, really thick johnson grass along the back wall), and _mowed_ that bastard! Woo! I beat the lawn! Then I actually cooked a fairly elaborate dinner. Another day, I rode, then washed my van by hand, then weedeated the lawn. Then one day _that same week_ I rode my two miles, then walked a mile with my husband (dumbass broke his shoulder the first week we got the bikes, in a rare fit of testosterone poisoning), then came home and took the kids swimming for a couple of hours. So far, this past month I've done more, physically, than I've managed in the past two years all put together, and I'm not having to 'pay' for it with a couple of weeks worth of excruciating pain. I don't have to just grit my teeth and push through life... I can _enjoy_ it, instead. I'm having _so_ much fun! We're going to take the kids to Six Flags, even. In the summer! That's such an impossible thing, I would have laughed maniacally last year if anyone had suggested it, now, I'm rather looking forward to it. :) I sound kind of fanatic, but... I would never have believed this much difference was possible. No way. I would have called any doctor who claimed they could produce such a difference a quack, in fact. But... it's there. And it's easy to miss things that might help because most doctors sure as hell aren't going to bother to mention them to you! And the new meds have made _such_ a difference... I kinda do feel like I've 'got religion' or something. It's like a whole new life, one I thought I'd _never_ have a chance at again.

Re: Alien Metabolisms

[dglenn.livejournal.com]

Ultram is my friend. I don't think it's working quite as well now as when I first tried it, but it's still impressively in between NSAIDs and opiates for effectiveness, and I'm rather happy to have something other than narcotics to take on the days when the pain isn't quite bad enough to warrant codeine or Vicodin but is more than NSAIDs will help.

I just wish they'd make time-release Ultram, dammit, so that I don't wake up after four hours when the drug wears off and the pain comes back.

Melatonin doesn't seem to do much for me (I tried that, full of hope, and was disappointed). And much of what you've described scares me ... but I've forwarded the URL of this thread to my doctor anyhow, in case some of it's useful to me. Thanks.

And I'm glad you've found a combination that works for you!

Re: Alien Metabolisms

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

What were you hoping for from melatonin? I experimented with it a little, and found that it produced a little wave of sleepiness about an hour after I took it. I'd sleep well if I went to sleep then, but not obviously better than if I didn't take it. If I overrode that little wave of sleepiness, the melatonin had no effect at all. If my experience is at all typical, I don't see any reason to expect it to keep anyone asleep when they're in pain.

I tried going off the vitamins again. I'm not sure whether it was rational experimentation or depressive self-neglect, but in any case, I experienced a flattening of mood but no problems with a self-hating internal monologue. So I started taking the vitamins again and cheered up.

Please let me know if your doctor figures out anything about the vitamins.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

Maybe it works better because it's got so many extracts as opposed to plain vitamins -- biology isn't chemistry. I find cod liver oil makes much more difference than taking the vitamins contained in it.

I also read that folic acid can really make a difference with depression, in both directions, people without enough get depressed, and people who get too much get depressed. (This made me instantly wonder about the US habit of adding it to bread.) Maybe this is the perfect amount for your body, compared to your earlier vitamin choices.

Though it's odd to think of your almost supernatural levels of patience as pathological.

[velvet-wood.livejournal.com]

From my experience and my doctor's advice, I'd say the high amounts of the B vitamins (B12 especially) plus D3 (most americans are D3 deficient because we get no sun, and so we can't process calcium properly, and it gets nasty sometimes, and can lead to severe depression), and some magnesium (related to the D3/calcium cycle thing) are probably the biggest mood boosters in there. There's a couple of mild stimulants... horseradish is one, but not in quantity enough to really count _as_ a stimulant. However... the use of natural food-based things instead of chemical compounds may seriously increase the amount of the vitamins your body can absorb, and so the whole thing might work better.

Ever tried sublingual b12? Not as good as a nice shot in the hip, but not bad, either. Keeps me moving, anyway, if I take lots (my wonder-doctor promises me that you can't overdose on b12), and isn't too expensive. Has the effect on me that you describe (as long as I'm getting some sunlight and enough calcium, too... nothing makes me feel good without that!) and is almost certainly easier to get a hold of than fancy name-brand vitamins.

I don't see anything harmful or potentially addictive in them, though, so I wouldn't worry about it. If they work, be happy about it, and go with that. I wouldn't take more than the recommended dose, tohugh, due to the amount of Vit. A, iodine, and copper in there... you don't want to get too much of those.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I've taken sub-lingual B12. There's a very specific "ragged around the edges" feeling that B12 eliminates, but I haven't noticed that it has any effect on negative self-talk.

[velvet-wood.livejournal.com]

I don't notice such an affect from the sublingual, just a bit more energy and less 'blah' feeling, but from the shots I get a definite mild euphoric, happy, confident feeling that lasts for three or four days. I could see someone who has a stronger reaction to the B12 getting it from a smaller dose. However, I think it's more likely several different things in combination, thus making it harder to pinpoint, of course.

Very useful information for me. Thanks for sahring.|

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[(Anonymous)]

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