Looking for torture doesn't work links, especially from US military

[nancylebov]

It's looks like it's time to argue about this, again.

I know there's a lot of good work online about it, including from pecunium, but I don't have specific locations handy to memory.

Also, anything solid about the long term effects of torture which doesn't leave visible marks would be appreciated.

Addendum:Eric says (in comments) that he's against torture. However, he seems to define anything which doesn't leave marks as not being torture.

I'll be working on sorting this stuff out when I comment over there.

Comments

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

I'll let you sort through this, because I don't know exactly what you're looking for, but solarbird regularly blogs about it and lumps the posts under her general politics tag.

I'm actually surprised you don't read her already. Anyhoo, I hope this helps.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

The piece I want to argue with is written from the assumption that the only reason anyone would have for opposing torture is wanting to get status with fellow upper class liberals. Sensible tough people who really want to protect America have the common sense point of view that torture is the only reliable method of getting information from our enemies.

I'm not sure how far I'll into ad hominem, but I do want to lay out some facts about the existence and effectiveness of the profession of civilized military interrogation.

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

What about the US Army? They aren't in favor of torture. Is the army full of high status liberals?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_34-52_Intelligence_Interrogation

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

It's so effective that the CIA feels the need to lie about it, both to the public and to its own people.

Our views on torture have changed so much that Ronald Reagan is now left wing.

Torture is so effective that the gov't invokes the 'state secrets' theory to protect itself from having to be honest about it.

Torture is so much fun that we've deliberately tortured innocent people, people we absolutely knew to be innocent, in order to get false confessions.

No wonder Congress continues to cover that shit up.

Torture works so well that the national media doesn't like to use the word.

And, of course, torture doesn't work. CIA ops will tell you so. Military folks will tell you so. Scientists will tell you so. History will tell you so. Srsly, what more do we need?

[avram]

The piece I want to argue with is written from the assumption that the only reason anyone would have for opposing torture is wanting to get status with fellow upper class liberals.

The only reason Eric Raymond says about half the stuff that he says about politics is to piss off liberals anyway. Most of his political posts have a really obvious your outrage demonstrates how smart I am subtext. I think it's occasionally seeped up into the text, but I don't feel like wading through is archives to verify that.

have not looked at links

[wolfdancer.livejournal.com]

but being subjucted to pain, esp random pain or psychological can leave long term scars. PTSD Night terrers more. Phobias
Having been subjected to the worst pain known to medical sicence for over 4 years Havng random electral shocks that could acure at any moment you have to understand you can live in constant fear of pain or freedom being taking away from you.
If you have been in a position of being icolated, torchered, unsuported, acused, it is enuff to break your soul.

[avram]

Why does it not surprise me that Raymond is a torture advocate?

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I guess it shouldn't. Eric has a fondness (afaik only theoretical/emotional) for violent solutions, and a difficulty grasping that violent solutions (even by the people on your own side) may have undesirable side effects.

I'm working on an argument to the effect that good effects gotten from extreme level of consent in his beloved open-source movement should offer a clue that behaving as though people have minds is an option which should be considered more carefully.

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

...wow.

Once again, I wish wilful ignorance in defiance of the facts was painful to the ignorant, rather than the rest of us. Reasoned argument will get you nowhere with that one. If he likes violent solutions, why not just hit him with a hammer till he stops blabbing?

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure anyone's immune to willful ignorance. As you say, it might be better for the human race if it were painful, but don't count on all the ignorance being on one side.

I don't know if I was behaving like it by linking to his blog, but Eric is a longterm friend of mine.

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

My thoughts on this are more complex than can be easily tapped out on an iPod when I should be translating Alcman.

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

Why do you even have to respond to such a stupid argument as the one articulated in that link? Torture is universally illegal. Are we going to argue that murder is sometimes justified? That rape is sometimes OK? Ridiculous.

On long term effects of torture that doesn't leave marks:

http://brokenlives.info/?page_id=69

The report is long, but there is an executive summary.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

It doesn't have to be responded to, but it's still around and, imho, still dangerous, and I'm in the mood to take a crack at it.

Thanks for the link.

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

I should have more links for you about the effectiveness question. The thing is, there aren't any legit experts who believe that torture is an effective way to extract information--except information about human responses to physical and psychological pain. It's not like this is a new idea, either.

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

There's a very good Fresh Air that talks with an interrogator--an actual interrogator, not a torturer.

[womzilla.livejournal.com]

Pecunium, referenced above, is also a (former?) military interrogator, who has written a great deal about exactly how badly torture works, at every level but especially at the level of "getting useful information in a timely manner", for which it is supposed to be a magic ticket.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Yes, former.

[andrewducker]

Two useful links from my backlog:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091026152818.htm
and
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/012159.html#012159